The Reformatory

Come on in here and sit down, chile. Whew. 

This week we're talking about a book that's very heavy but when a story like this gets told- you take it in! The Reformatory by Tananarive Due, the queen herself, follows the story of a young boy caught in the web of his town's dark history and his survival of that town's infamous school for boys. This is historical fiction meets paranormal thriller and it's in a league of its own!

This is based on a true story, so trigger warnings abound! We're discussing themes of white supremacy, racial violence, and similar topics, so please listen with care. This is probably the hardest episode we've recorded thus far. But the conversation is very important. 

So grab your drink (you gonna it, honey) and let's get into it. 

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_05 0:01

Hey, hey, hey, book lovers. Welcome to Hot on the Rock, the podcast where representation is crucial and it's always for the black.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

We're your hosts, Alicia Ricia and Tia, three friends dedicated to honoring the brilliance and the power of black appeal to the authors.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

We got some hot tape, some spoilers, but don't worry, we'll always warn you, and deep combos on culture, identity, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_05 0:26

Each week we dive deep into a new book, share our unfiltered thoughts, and celebrate the writers who are reshaping the literary world one story at a time.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

And fair morning, if you can break on a quiet book club, this might not be what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Grab your favorite drink, curl up with us, and let's talk books. The ones that move us, excite us, and keep us flipping pages way past our bedtime.

SPEAKER_05 0:50

So lower your expectations and let's get into the plot.

SPEAKER_04 0:57

Hello everyone. Welcome back to today's. Welcome back to today's episode. Like we've like we're on the view or something. What episode is this episode?

SPEAKER_05 1:07

It's still today.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

It's relative to both of them. This is true. We have to laugh, we have to giggle because we're talking about a very heavy book today. We're gonna be discussing the Reformatory by Tanana Reev Dew, which I think this is minorikia's first time reading her. Right? And then Tia's been like the the connoisseur of her. Yeah. So yes, so just to give a little biography on Miss Tanareve Dew, she is a daughter of civil rights activists um and a civil rights attorney. She was born and raised in Florida, and this book, the reformatory, is based off of a real school, um, a real reform school in Florida called the Dozier School. Um, it follows the story of 12-year-old Robbie Stevens who is sent to this school after protecting her sister his sister from um a white boy who tries to make a pass at her, and this is obviously Jim Crow, Florida, which you can't do. Obviously. He kicks him. This white boy happens to be the son of the most prominent landowner in Florida or in the area in Florida. The father sees what Robbie has done, and then the next day he's arrested and shipped off to the school. Um so before we even get into like the heaviness of everything, what do we rate this book? Clinks, stars, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_05 2:50

I will go ahead and give this five clings. Perfect story. Heavy as hell, hard to read at some point, but perfect story, which I'm not surprised. I love her. I yeah, yeah, uh, so good.

SPEAKER_04 3:08

Same. I would do oh, I got a good one! I never get a good one. Click at this. Oh my god, I would do that rank. I know I covered you. I'm gonna do five out of five because again, perfect story, perfect writing, perfect everything, even though it's like it was a a fiction, but historical, and that's the thing. Like it's historical fiction, but it's also like supernatural. But there's so there are so many things that I learned too, like people that I never heard of, things that I never knew, and I love that she like the way that she like weaved it in so perfectly was just yeah, perfect is the only word I can think of. Really, honestly, truly perfect.

SPEAKER_05 3:59

That's my favorite part of her books. All of her books do that. Well, rate all of her books, like you learn so much, and her whole bibliography five stars is well for me.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

I thoroughly enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

So perfect, yes, and what is everybody drinking?

SPEAKER_05 4:20

When's the last time we rated a book all five stars at one time? Last season. We've only had two of those. Well, no, no, no, we had one this season. It was the first half of the season. I don't wish you well. Yes, I don't wish you well, yeah. I don't wish you well. I feel like it was one more. Was it one more? Yeah, it was one more. What was it? Hold on, let me go look at our episodes real quick because I know it was one more for sure.

SPEAKER_04 4:53

Yes, for last season, I think.

SPEAKER_05 4:55

Yeah, I thought we had more and more this season.

unknown 4:59

I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 5:00

Like when I'm I'm looking back at the books and I'm like, no, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 5:03

We're just starting reading the books this season.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

We really did just it's been like a we have range, range of books, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 5:15

You know what? At least I think the one that we actually did like, which ironically enough, again, was this Hogarth Roaches in her crib. Yeah, like something that's so surprising. That was the only other one we liked just about. It's like I think it's so surprising, but what's also side note? What's everybody drinking today? I haven't even tasted mine yet. Hopefully, it's good.

SPEAKER_05 5:38

I got my regular rose.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

I got a little rose as well. I tried to copy the drink that you made us.

SPEAKER_05 5:47

Wait, I'm I lie. This is moscato. I'm just saying shit. This is pink moscato. I don't know the difference. When you pulled up your rose, and I'm like, oh, hers look different than mine. What okay? Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 6:02

Listen, I don't know the difference, honestly. I know red, white, and pink. I know red, white, and pink, and that is pretty much it. Um, close. I tried to combine, I try to do what you did for us, Rikia. I did a peach moscato and a sangria. I can okay, but yeah, so I combined I combined a peach moscato and a sangria to kind of taste like what you had made, Rikia. And it's pretty good. Does it taste the same?

unknown 6:31

No.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

But I like it.

SPEAKER_05 6:35

It's good, it's good. Okay. Yes. I need to get more creative with my drinks, y'all. I've just been stuck on wine lately so much. I just want to share the bottom and see. I need to get more creative, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

I'd be bored. That's where my stuff is coming from. I'd be like, hmm, what can I try today? What can I mix together? What will taste good? What I got in here right now. A lab.

SPEAKER_05 6:58

Yes. Oh my god. See, my problem is I can drink the same thing over and over again for a year and just be so okay with that. I need I need to branch out.

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Elizabeth, I feel like every time I branch out, it tastes like booty. Jeremy got this watermelon cider. Absolutely not. Absolutely. I don't like watermelon like this. That was a country accent, girl.

SPEAKER_05 7:24

You said watermelon. I felt the boot was coming out, and I was trying to read it back in, but it was too hard. I have to let you rob. But since Elisa you said something. Oh god. Yeah, that was real strong.

SPEAKER_04 7:42

That was real strong. I don't I don't know what it can be. Jeremy does it to me all the time this morning. I was like, I was like, I was I wanted to make myself a little iced coffee. See, and then I said I was like, I can't reach the cup. Can you have it for me? And then he's like, You want you want some coffee? And I was like, just give me the cup. Thank you. You know what? Sometimes it just slides. But okay, anyway. Let's get into the book. We have to have fun. We have to laugh because if you don't laugh, we'll cry. Yeah. So before we get into it, I wanted to talk a little bit about like the history of where she pulled everything from. So, like I mentioned earlier, it was an actual school in Florida called the Dodger School in Mariana, Florida, where her uncle, I believe, actually attended, which made her want to write the story. And it was one of those things where it's like, you know, maybe nobody really talked about him. And then as she uncovered all this, Robbie Stevens is like the namesake of her uncle. Um doesn't have the same fate as the story Robbie Stevens, unfortunately. Um, because I do believe he was one of the the children, because it was a children's school, quote unquote school that was a victim of everything that would go on there. Um thousands of boys when you look online it says as young as eight, but on the Wikipedia page it said three three. Which when I read that I had to like just take a second because it's like something is skipping school, being an orphan, you get sent there. Right and it's just like, and there was there was um it would be abused, obviously, physical abuse, mental abuse by the people who would run this place, sexual abuse, unfortunately, and it's the school did not close until 2011. And it opened in 1911. That is what and eleven.

SPEAKER_05 9:55

When I saw that, I was just like, you know, insane.

SPEAKER_04 10:00

One thing, one thing about Florida, that's like to me, that's like a modern-day world list. To me. Like, so is it like shocking that like it closed out late? It's like it's like no but yes at the same time.

SPEAKER_05 10:16

But it was just you would hope that there's a limit to some of these days. Um and that we we know obviously that things have are not as progressed as they love to teach us or to say they are. Um case in point, the many lynchings that have been happening over the last few months. And it's like when you look at places like Florida, Mississippi, those are places you still ain't gonna. I mean, really part of North Carolina, you ain't just driving around at night, you just ain't doing it, you just not going by yourself. Because unfortunately, there are demonic people in the world who still uphold this stuff, and it's just it's it's very disheartening at times. So think this way. So reading this book was very hard. Yeah, it was very hard, especially in light of everything going on. It was like oh, it was so hard. It took me forever to read it. I had to do it in sections. Yeah, I cried a lot. I had to do it in sections too, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:26

It was too like it was one of those things where it was like it was too much, and then I wanted to like power through it. And I don't know why I wanted to power through it. I think my thing is like I need it when I get in an uncomfortable thing, I just have to do it because I I need it to be over with soon, basically. Because if I stop, it's like okay, well, I have to go back to this. Like, I remember like reading at the kitchen table and I'm like sobbing, and Jeremy's like, why don't you just like take a break? I was like, no, like I need to just I've I'm okay. He's like, Why are you reading this? I was like, I have to read it, just let me let me do it. But it was and the thing about Florida is like so you know, I have family there, I grew up going there. Florida has some good PR, really good PR. Because I think for the vast majority of people, when they think about Florida, they think about Miami and Disney World, and Universal Studios and beaches, yeah, and I remember like growing up, because I would only go there maybe four weeks out of the year, like Christmas and summertime. And I never really considered it part of the what the heck? My camera disconnected. Oh no, oh no, we had some technical difficulties, guys. Sorry, so what I was saying, what were they saying? Florida. I'll go to Florida, I'll go to Florida, um yeah. And because of the I didn't know a lot about Florida history growing up, like, especially like in history classes, what we would learn about the South, it was always like Georgia, North Carolina, because like all those other places never really learned about like Florida history, obviously, because why would I in in New York? But I never I've there was there would be points where I was like, Well, is Florida like the South? Like, really? Because like, especially where I would go would be in like the Tampa area, and like northern Florida is a little bit more country than like the inner parts of it. So, and then when I found out, like, do you know the only reason why Florida is a state is because when it was owned by Spain, that's where like enslaved people from Georgia, North Carolina, that's where they would escape to because they would get freedom if they came to Florida. And the US government didn't like that. That's the only reason why Florida was a state. It's because of that. Literally, what?

SPEAKER_05 14:06

Like there's not one part of this country's history that is not rooted in anything last week. It gets it gets exhausting to a point.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

Like, and that's why I get irritated when people are like, why do you make everything about because it is everything literally is the basis of it, and it's like, and then like that's the town where the reformatory takes place reminded me of the town that I would like go and visit my family, because you guys know I hate going to Florida. No offense to people who are Florida, I hate going there, but there is lit it literally disturbs my spirit, and I know it sounds like very dramatic, but like you feel different, it is a different energy, and there's a lot of people who are true, toilets and there's a lot of people who are connected like spiritually, where it's like, no, it is a weird energy because water is used in any spirituality, right? It's surrounded by water. You have the seminal Indians who are there, you had enslaved Africans who were there, and it's like there's this weird energy in Florida that I absolutely hate. And then you look at what happened, like the history of it. Like, I remember like when I was Googling it, because on this leads us to the questions, finally, but I'm gonna go out of order here. But um, on page 16, like right in the beginning of the book, it says on Florida soil, sometimes killing broke out for its own reasons. Um, Florida is soaked so much in blood, it's a wonder the droplets don't seep between your toes with every step, Mama used to say. And when I read that line, I was like, Oh, that's literally how it feels when you go there. And like when I googled it, it was the first thing that popped up was Florida has a reputation as being heavily haunted land due to its four centuries of overlapping human conflict, colonial bloodshed, yellow fever epidemics, and shifting frontier history. And that made me look up the history of the town where my family is, which is Brooksville, Florida. There they they live like outside of it, but the name Brooksville, it's named after a racist senator from South Carolina, right, I think from South Carolina, who beat an abolitionist senator to death for opposing slavery. That's what the town is named after. And it's like everything I feel about it is like is valid because that's that's weird. That is weird.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

That's your town's namesake, and it's like you know it, and then for other people to know it, and then there's not a change. Because when I think of big big changes like that, like I'm not a sports fan at all. Like go sports, and then after that, I really don't know what's going on. But I think of like I think of like the big to-do they did for the Redskins, and they're now the commanders. There can be significant changes like that all over the world, and they choose not to because of the people that it either benefits or does not benefit, which is insane because you beat somebody to death, and you got a whole city town named after you. That's okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

It's but there's like even like if you drive through it, there's um there's like a civil war memorial there. I I'm 95% sure the hanging there's a hanging tree still out front of the courthouse. And then instead of taking there's a Confederate statue somewhere down there, they put a fence around it so people couldn't come and take it down. It's like oh god, you know, like I and there's an article I was reading of this woman who moved from Atlanta. This mind you this article was written in like 2016, I think, and she moved from Atlanta to Brooksville, and she said she had a culture shock because obviously this is a white lady in Atlanta too, but for a white lady to be like this is weird because there's obviously black people everywhere in Atlanta, and then you come to Brooksville and it's like oh okay, yes, this is what is the color, and she would interview people like she wanted to interview someone because it's one of those places where it's like, no, it doesn't exist here. Literally, black and white people have two completely different ideas of it. And she interviewed someone, and the person who interviewed that she interviewed again, this is in 2015, was like respectfully, please don't share my picture, please don't share my name, don't even quote me because I'm worried for my safety and yours. Like and that's why I say Florida has some good. Well, I don't know about now. I think people are starting to realize that Florida's kind of crazy. But for a while it has it has some good PR for a good amount of time.

SPEAKER_05 19:07

Well, you know, I hope people are realizing, and and I hope they're also realizing, especially with current events, that this stuff is not isolated. It's not isolated. People have been getting lunched all over the country, and it's more concentrated down here because it's more open down here. But that don't mean it don't exist outside of here, and I need everybody to wake up to the fact that this whole country, the entire country, is fucked up beyond belief. All these people is demonic, and that's all I gotta say about that. I don't know. It's just it blows my mind because I just, you know, I don't I don't know. I think I was talking to y'all about this a couple weeks ago. I can't remember, but it's like this this concept of hatred, black people just don't have that. We don't have that. We was raised, you don't even say you hate nothing. Because that's a strong word. You growing up as a black child, you get in trouble for saying you hate something. You can say you don't like it, but like that's not everybody's reality. There are people out here who were raised to say, I hate niggas, and were raised that that's okay. And hatred is is a strong emotion. It is a very, it's a toxic emotion, and it just infects everything around it, and it's just it's disgusting to think about, but it still exists here. And we have to, if we want anything to change, we're gonna have to acknowledge that, and we're gonna have to acknowledge the fact that everybody was not born with raised in love, they were not born in a culture of love, they don't understand mercy, they don't understand any kind of under like that, they just don't, they don't have that.

SPEAKER_04 20:53

And even like I think I I was telling you too, like, where it's like if I don't like something, I don't want anything to do with it. If I don't like somebody, stay away from me. But it's like with with racists, it's the complete opposite. It's like you're obsessed, you're obsessed, yeah. And it's like I don't understand that. Because again, if I if I have an aversion to something or to someone, stay over there. Or if I think it's dead. Yes. Oh, we're gonna we're gonna stay over there. Yeah, but no, this is like, and even with the the lynching thing, I need stop saying it, stop saying it's a suicide for the love of God. For the love of God, please.

SPEAKER_05 21:31

Cause it can't all all of them. Let that fantasy go. That's exactly what it is. Let that fantasy go. And you know, I and I'm I don't wanna I don't wanna say I don't want to be insensitive to anybody's family when I say this, but until I see somebody's mama come out and say on camera or quote it in a newspaper somewhere saying, I saw the video, it was actually. Self-inflicted. Guess what? I ain't believing a damn thing that the police department got to say.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 22:06

RPD lie every day. I don't care. Till I see proof or somebody's mother, brother, somebody who's close to them come out and say, Oh, yeah, I saw it. Yeah, I don't give a damn what y'all gotta say.

SPEAKER_04 22:20

That leads to another question I had was um in this birthscaping a habit in the final chapter. Um Gloria says when um already I forgot the name of the of the warden, McCormick. Little bastard ass.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

I thought it was Howard. Howard?

SPEAKER_04 22:38

Howard McCormick wasn't no McCormick was the name of the the um the superintendent. No, I think McCormick was the name of the the kid that he hit.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah, that yeah, his uh his name is like Howard or something like that. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:53

Haddock. Yeah, that's what it is. Haddock, that's a little sick bastard. He killed his sister. He's disgusting. Little baby sister, crazy. He was crazy. We're skipping all over the place. We're not even saying like what's happening in the story, but because it's just like it's crazy. We're going to tannin. But like in the story, so he Robert Robert gets there and he makes two friends. And like we say this every single episode, but if you listen to us, you know by now it's spoilers. So if you don't want to spoil it, read the book, come back. Anyway, he made two friends, Redbone and Blue. Did you think I want you guys to think about this? Because when when the reveal came that blue was a hate, I had to look think back about the foreshadowing. Because she did foreshadow, because I was like, wait, she's really good. She didn't even foreshadow that. I was like, wait, no, she actually did like multiple times. And it's like you're not so clever. Oh my god. I need to know your reaction because I was I literally gasped. I gasped when it was revealed that that blue was a hate this whole time.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

I feel like I had two thoughts because when he said you were talking about it, I was like, okay, so did he not hear Blue's voice as well? And then when he said, Don't say anything about blue, again, is Blue in the room with us? I'm very good. What is happening here? So I was like, uh, it makes sense now. It makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 24:21

Yes, like the scene where like the when they line him up before they go to the fun house. Yeah, it was like, oh no, I didn't do anything, and then he just runs back. I was like, oh wait, like he didn't tell people they could go. And I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 24:36

Yeah, yeah. Part of me was thinking up until the reveal, I was like, well, dang, is blue somebody's child? Is blue does blue have something on him? Like, I I was really trying to understand because it seemed like blue was just so brazen and unafraid and playing jokes and doing all that kind of stuff. And I was like, something about blue, but I couldn't figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

When I when they revealed that, but I literally was like, but I think to your point there's something going on with him because she makes a point to say that he's not from here, he's not American, he's from the Bahamas, he's from the Caribbean. And even like with when Haddock was talking about how much he did not like him because of how he spoke to white people, where he was like, No, this is my right that I can do this. They don't you you can't talk like that to white people in America, not at this time. So I for I just thought he was like that because again, he's not from here, he didn't get the gist of like how you act versus over where he's from to here. So I just thought it was a cultural difference, which it could be, which I think she dropped that in to kind of trick you too. Yeah, but then when it came when they say he was, I was like, Oh my god, that was so it was so my god, ugh, and it was just oh I I hated Haddock so bad. Like I hated, I hated that man, I hated that man, I hated that man.

SPEAKER_05 26:02

And Ugh, that that you want to know what I hated the most about him? What I hated the most about him is that he is the type of he's the type of white person where it's like I feel like we run into this a lot, a lot nowadays, especially. They can appreciate black people. Do y'all remember that part where he was talking about well, niggas ain't dumb as like as they say, they be smart, they you can't underestimate. Oh, yeah, no, no. There are some racist people who can very much appreciate the skills we have, the abilities we have. They can know that we are probably more human than they are as far as their processing of emotions and things like that. And yet, because they have the power to do what they want to do, they're gonna do it anyway. And to me, that's almost scarier. Like you're telling me, you see me as a full person, you can recognize that I'm not a one of a collective, I'm an individual, and I might have different skills, and still you're going to oppress me. That's scary. You're psychopathic.

SPEAKER_04 27:17

He was I can't even I can't even describe him as a person, like what he like I cried the I cried the hardest, I think. One of the hardest parts I cried was when they finally go to the shed and they find sorry I'm laughing because I don't want to cry. Where they find the his when he talks about his favorite broom and then like knowing oh my god, and then knowing again this is a real place where these kids, these kids had to just deal with that, and I knew it was something because blue when he kept telling Robbie like he's he's worse than you will ever than he will ever know. When Robbie got undressed in front of him and how he was looking at him, I was like, please I swear to god, please don't do anything to him to anybody, but then finding out that he does do stuff that that killed me. And that because what you're talking about too, where it's like you were talking about obviously the country as like a whole of how or like you yeah, you're talking about country as a whole, how we need to process stuff, and then I was saying how like, oh yeah, in Florida, where it's like some people are like, No, we don't have a racist issue, blah blah blah. In the final chapter, so we're skipping ahead when he gets what's coming to him, thank God. Thank god. I love that it comes to his dog exactly, exactly, and I love that it was his dog. I love that it was his dog who did it. Um Gloria says that everyone would try to say that only the warden left Maul in the Creek had created this unholy suffering at that place when the whole town had a hand. What do you think she meant by that? Or how did you feel when she said that?

SPEAKER_05 29:22

I highlighted that part specifically because I feel like that's every day in America for us to this day. Every day. Every day. I get you know, I get I literally got in an argument quote unquote with somebody on threads literally just an hour, an hour ago, because somebody was saying something about race racism, and this girl jumps in there. Well, as one of those whites who isn't one of those whites, I'm always so appalled when I hear them saying things like this, and I'm like, Oh, are you if you're not saying nothing, you're still one of them. Sorry to break it to you. Sorry to break it to you, and then of course she got defensive, which proved Oh, that's a that that's gonna lead to my other question too, in a second.

SPEAKER_04 30:13

And I think because that's the thing where it's like when you it's easier to blame an individual for something because that's the thing too, where it's like I think a lot of people when they think of racism, again, it's it's the KKK, it's a Nazi, it's a skinhead, it's not a collective as a whole, and it's it would be easier for the town to be like, oh, he was a bad apple, because for the most part it was definitely one of those separate but equal situations where it's like again, black and white people are living completely different lives, but for a white person at that time, it's like, oh yeah, they were fine, it's fine. This doesn't exist, it's okay, but it's harder to have to acknowledge that it's something as a whole, and the whole entire system needs to be just reassessed, burnt down.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

I agree, I know and I think when I I sat with that quote for a while simply because I feel like they are okay with the whip and not okay with the lashes. Y'all are okay that it was a white man essentially holding the whip, lashing out at everybody else. Yet everybody didn't directly hurt one of them. All of y'all knew what was going on and chose to do nothing to help. And it's like, oh, this white man, he's sullied the town. What about like all of the their spirits and their souls that are now have been set free in that water, just nailing up a happy, not I can't even say happier place, but like they're not confined to that evil space or confined to a jar. Like every everybody was okay with it when y'all had bricklayers and y'all had a marching band for the parade and all these other things. Like, what? And they were also there, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_04 32:10

Was it tobacco or something like that? No, turpentine, I think they were providing that for the town. All types of stuff they were providing labor, free labor.

unknown 32:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:20

At that, some things never change, but now that it's the 14th Amendment, I promise you, it's it reading what is this book, and that one of the things that was so hard is that you just really see how much nothing has changed. Yeah, nothing has changed, they still locking up babies. I mean, babies are getting pregnant in the detention facilities. They're not all black, they're brown, they're black, they're brown, you know, they're locking up children, they're babies in there. I just saw an article about a one-year-old being taken out with no representation. Did you see that? Yes. And the and the judge said she didn't provide nothing is a baby, a one-year-old. And it's like a baby. They're still locking up children, they're still getting free labor from black black people locked up in the system, overdoing something as simple as holding an ounce of weed. Even though weed is legalized in so many states now. Guess what? They're still they're still locked up. People locked up who haven't even had a trial yet. You know, I due process, just there's nothing different about it. Well, out the window, nothing at all. And that Ricky, can you you got time?

SPEAKER_04 33:39

Okay. And that means because like with the other one too that I that I found really interesting, because you have what we have white characters in the book. You have Miss Ann, you have Mr. Loman. Um, and this was one of those times where it was like I was reading it and I was like, you know what? Especially with those two, it's like they at this point, the white people they can only do what they can do to help. I do I think I think they both helped Robbie and his family in a way as small as it was. But what got me on is on chapter 25, page 330, Mrs. Lohman, Rob um, Mr. Lohman's wife, they're they're Jewish, they're from New York, they moved down to Florida, which I don't know, I don't know why you would do that at this time, but that's your decision. Um, their kids are getting made fun of at school because they're Jewish, they look different. And she attends a luncheon between Jews and Christians, and she was so excited at the end of it, and she was saying how this luncheon would help her kids fit in. And the only question I had the only thing I wrote down was like the need to be accepted and aligned with whiteness when you are the other. Yes, you're Jewish, yes, you're white, but you're still the other. Miss Anne, a white woman whose daddy was killed by the KKK, it's eluded because he has sympathies for black people, she's a lesbian, so she has to move different. But that the the comment from Mrs. Loman, that got me because it's just like you want that acceptance like so bad that you're like your kids are getting like bullied, they don't like it here, they don't like it here, but you want to be aligned with that so bad, and like you see that because I remember like reading an article where it's like it takes two generations for like for specifically European like descendants, it takes two generations for them to have no connection because they've assimilated into whiteness, which is nothingness, no cultural connection. And I just asked that question like why do you want to do that? Just go home, go back to New York, just go back to New York, please. Like, why would you subject your kids to that? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

I feel like it's a psychological pool because I I wrote down the same thing. I feel like it is a psychological pool that people have to be aligned, have that overall proximity, and to feel wanted. But my thing is you want to feel wanted by people who do not even like you, they don't like you.

SPEAKER_04 36:27

You're telling me you couldn't find other Jewish people?

SPEAKER_05 36:30

You couldn't find a community, and you know, this is what I I wish that more white people understood nowadays. Um, and not just white people, because honestly, again, nothing new under the sun. We we see the discourse of even Hispanic or even unfortunately some black people from other countries who come over here and participate in the system of whiteness as well and try to assimilate. And it's the same thing like you're seeking acceptance, you're seeking safety when in reality these people are never going to see you as one of them. They will use you to their purposes and command you to get in where you fit in, which is what they do. It started with the Europeans coming over here and saying, Oh no, we we just want to be American, we just want to be white. Starts with that, and now we have Hispanic people coming over here, joining ICE by the droves, locking up their own people just to fit in with white supremacy.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

There's nothing new under the sun, and it was like I saw one thing, I forgot who it was Vivek, one one of the Indian American people that's in the government now. I forgot what holiday it was. I don't know if it was like Diwali or something like that. And again, he's Republican, he aligned himself with that, and he had tweeted, like, oh happy Diwali, whatever, whatever. He got chewed out by these people. Like, it was just like we don't do that here. And I'm just like, I was like, I was like, see, you can't be shocked when the leperied your face. Like bullied up, yeah. And it's like, and I even like and I get like on the one part, I think, yeah, because Loman, David Loman, that's what it was. You see, like he wants he's even going against who he is as a person because he wants to help him, but again, he's in this completely different area with a completely different hierarchy that's different from up north, and it's like I feel like he's even doing stuff that's not natural to him because I feel like he wanted to do more, but then he had now he had to think about the safety of his wife, the safety of his kids, the safety of himself. I couldn't do that. I'm sorry, babe. I know you want to be close to your family, but we we gotta go. We gotta go home.

SPEAKER_05 38:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:53

Cause granted, did his call did his call start the catalyst of giving glory the map to tell yes. So he did what he can do. But I was like, damn, like I was like, white whiteness is a hell of a drug. No, for real. A part of something. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 39:10

Yeah, it's it's all it it benefits no one, is what I feel like one of the lessons is. It doesn't benefit anybody. You got white women in their houses scared of their husbands, running around ducking and hiding to get their own money to help somebody that they consider, you know. You know, I don't know if y'all caught the part that they was related back. Yes, and then Miss Lottie. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, wow, this is your actual literal family. You can't even help because they darker than you. You you want to help, but you trapped, you feel trapped. But the only way you can help right now is with your money and lesson, you know, if you feel trapped, give your money. Just gonna say that. But no, she wasn't Miss Ann wasn't married, so you feel like you can.

SPEAKER_04 40:02

The man in Miss Ann's House wasn't her husband, that was her brother. Miss Anne was a lesbian. She had a whole bunch of Jesus in that as a oh yeah, no, no, I know.

SPEAKER_05 40:12

I know that, yeah. Okay, I'm gonna say that. I'm just saying in general.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

But even with that, like, and yeah, I'm saying in general. Because even with that, like that was and I thought reading it, I found myself giving her more. I don't know if I gave her more of a pass. But even like, and you even see the difference too, like they were her and her partner. I think what what was her partner's name? Shane. Shane Channing. Yeah, I think they were more comfortable being themselves at this fishing hole with over there, but the black ones right there, they were like fine, and you even see like that difference. And like, I remember Gloria looking at the guy, and she was just like, It's like whatever it is, it's like they're just doing whatever, and it's like, and it's with her, like, and I felt bad for her. I felt bad for her too, because it's like, damn, like you really you have to like hide a relationship. You have you have to escape in one way and too. Because she had like a lodge somewhere, I think. And then we got over K. You added that question about Miss Lottie too, because it's also alluded that she was also a lesbian. Um, where she said on page 105, Miss Lottie herself had never married, but as a younger woman, she photographed herself often with the woman she had always called. It's always a friend, they were roommates. A little friend, best friends, they're best friends, and you said, Oh no, not Siri. I don't want to talk to you, Siri. No, she's been coming on a lot lately. I don't like that. I kinda did you see the iPhones coming out with AirPods with a camera? Did you see that?

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Anyway, why would we have a couple of things?

SPEAKER_04 41:57

I don't know. They want cameras on everything. I don't like it. Um anyway, you said why did the author see this is this is an important thing to add, especially during those times. And I thought it was like an added layer of like of intersectionality, and also feels like an added layer of like of normalcy, especially I feel like we've read a lot of historical novels where it's like there's a lot of black characters that we've read from back in the day that were gay or bi, and how it was just like not really questioned too much, which I think is very interesting compared to now, where it's very much like I I like that they added that. I felt bad for her, but she still had her family, she had her chosen family that she wanted with the two boys, the two men, and then Robbie and and and Gloria. But I love that they included that. Miss Ann's a lesbian, too. They're related, it's genetic, so it's like look at that.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

I you do run the same. I I like that they added that as well. Okay, yeah. Oh no, you I like that they added that. I do, like you said, that extra layer. I know you said that you kind of feel bad for Ann. I have a coin flip for her. I like that when Gloria called her out and she was like, Yes, you say all these good things about my family, about my dad, about my brother to me, but you don't say it to anybody else. And then when the sheriff came, she was like, Y'all know damn well that her little whatever her side piece be beating her black and blue, and then now it's a big to do. So I did like that, but I don't necessarily say that I would feel bad for her in the context of everybody else because you're a white woman with that money that your father has left you, you have a home, you

SPEAKER_04 44:00

not have to work you have hired help you have your person and you have somewhere to hide away to girl she alright that shows yes she was privileged yes she was and that's you know even in even in her perceived you know restrictions and that's why you know it was just it was just so hard to read this book because I really just saw today yeah I really just saw today I really just felt today I mean you can get on the internet right now and find a white woman that will argue you down that she's oppressed as well she can't be gay and peace girl the thing going on in the world girl you can be gay a little more peaceful than maybe I can even say I get that like intersection that because that's the thing the intersectionality right where it's like you are if I feel like hold on I can do this I can do this but it's like okay so for for Anne right her intersections where she's a woman and she's a again a closeted lesbian so like nobody else knows right but she's still white so she has that privilege miss Lottie is old she's disabled she's black and she's a lesbian so she's got she's got four out of four right there so it makes it it makes it harder whereas again with Mr. Lohman he's again I don't like and that's the whole thing with Jewish identity it's so hard to do because like yes you're white but again you're still different so like but his his benefits is he's still a man it's like yes it is hard for you and it's like yes well bad that maybe maybe you won't get it as bad if you do help them people find out I don't know I don't know how it was back then. Granted where wasn't I think there was somebody that traveled with with MLK at the time that he was white and he got killed too so that's there's that yeah but it's like there's there's risk in there you know and I'm not I'm never gonna uh cut cut nobody for that or say that they don't have risk but you know it's about the bravery part that Glory was talking about it's like if you know that this is the truth if you know my daddy didn't do this then be brave everybody just say everybody in the town knew that his dad that her dad did it rape two everybody knew and it's like no it's we'll just keep we'll just keep on everybody doing and that's and that's and that which is fair everybody in a way was a victim of that town and of that mentality and I'm that that's the thing with people even say they don't realize that you're all victims of it in one way shape or form you just have to wake up to it damn it and sorry this also has to do with Dagoma too so I gotta damn you just have to wake up to it you're you're all victims you're all victims of it in just one way shape or form and it's like once you realize like I want to end I want to include that gift you're a victim you know the rap battle you're a and it it's like um and that's what this is I'm going all over the place because the wines are already getting to me. Yeah you're following me okay this leads me to another thing too um because I think after these last we don't have any more questions we could just keep talking about it but throughout the novel characters interact or are mentioned or with or mentioned real and prominent um black figures from the Jim Core era so you have again these are people that I have no idea who existed at the time I'm gonna read off like all their biographies Ruby McCullum Harry T. Moore and victims like Willie James Howard and the Grovelin boys now before I get into the question because each one I had to look up and what's funny not funny but in the story um Robbie can see Haints and then Gloria can like has premonitions like she can she knows when something's bad is gonna happen and when somebody is gonna die. She just doesn't know who it is. Yeah and I don't know what caused me to look up Ruby McCollum first because I just thought it was like another character in the story but she sees Ruby McCollum and she knows something bad is gonna happen and when I looked it up she Ruby McCullough born Ruby Jackson she was a wealthy married black woman in Live Oak Florida who was charged in 1952 for first degree murder for killing Dr. C. Leroy Adams a white doctor and state senator she testified as to their sexual relationship and his paternity of her child the judge prohibited her from recounting more details of her allegations of abuse by Adams and she was convicted and sentenced to death for his murder by an all-whury she ends up not getting sentenced to death she ends up getting out so you have her there probably I think this one here I think she's saying two words like probably one of the first black women in history to talk about a white man taking sexual advantage of her even though we know it's been happening um I think she's the first document it out of everybody she is the the only one that I had actually heard of yeah because I don't know if it was honestly I could be lying but I really don't feel like I am I feel like she was mentioned one time on like a Law and Order SVU episode I think her name was mentioned I was like who is that and I looked it up and I was like oh because I think that's crazy. Her is the name of the gag order is what kind of helped with essentially what the name of it is really so that's oh because I guess because it said that the judge prohibited her from like saying anything else about it. And then I think the report it was written by Zora Neil Hurston for the Pittsburgh Courier the first newspaper outside of Florida for for newspaper outside of of Florida so it got like national attention and then you have Harry T. Moore who was the founder of the first NAACP branch in Beward County um his house was bombed on Christmas night and the reason why him and his wife died is because the only hospital who would take them was 30 minutes away from the house. So there was that and then you had Willie um Willie Johnson no Willie Howard James where oh a crush note that he had written to a white girl was found and he was lynched that's gonna lead to my other question and then the Groveland boys which growing up I had heard of the Scottsboro boys but I never heard of the Groveland boys and they were what was this one? The Groveland four were four black teens Ernest Thomas Charles Greenley Samuel Shepard and Walter Irvin in July 1949 the four were accused of as usual what they're always accused of raping a white woman and severely beating her husband in Lake County Florida. The oldest Thomas tried to elude capture and was killed that month the others were put on trial Shepard and Irvin received death sentences and Greenley was sentenced to life in prison. The events of this case led to serious questions about the arrest allegedly coerced confessions and mistreatment which again we still see we saw that with the see all the time Central Park 5 is like the biggest example I have of that too and the unusual sentencing following their convictions their incarceration was exacerbated by their systemic and unlawful treatment including the death of Shepard and the near fatal shooting of Irvin. Greenly was paroled in 1962 and Irvin in 1968 all f all for apostamously exonerated by the state of Florida in 2021 which don't even do that at that point. Like honestly what is the point what is the point of doing exactly it's like with exactly with the school you did it leave it alone like oh my god like I whatever and I think Greenley had come to Grove in 1949 looking for work as he was already married and his wife was pregnant like shit is evil.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Anyway to the question um how does that sound that sound sorry scared scared we're reading a story about gum um it's not a hang it's just a squishy apple um how does the inclusion of real um black um figures um contribute to the story for you and have you heard of these people before to answer the second question no I haven't heard of any of them and it's like the that's the other question do people in Florida even know who these people are because when you when you think of like civil rights activists when you think of victims I feel like the state of Florida never comes up it's everywhere else which again leads me to say again their PR is amazing so much suppressed information because like I said that the one out of all of them but as big as like you said Central Part 5 was I had I hadn't heard of the other boys like yeah and honestly it's it's not I'm not even gonna say it's just Florida because let's I mean let's just take a look at our our dear own old home state North Carolina now as much as I love where I'm from I love my state I love my where I was born love it born and raised however they suppressed a lot here too and you know it's a lot of stuff that you learn as you get older and you're you're uncovering all this stuff and you're like well why did they teach us in school this like Rikia I don't know if you learned this but I learned that Thomas Jefferson's teeth was wooded.

SPEAKER_05 54:26

I thought that was George Washington or George Washington yeah I learned that his teeth was wooded and they didn't say anything about him taking the teeth of enslaved people or oh we learned all about his his affair with with um I can't think of her name now his mistress quote I think that's that's Thomas tell us that how young she was now y'all know who I'm talking about. Elizabeth I'm not good with names right now when we knew that Sally Hemings was like a a girl a girl and not only that wasn't she like the half sister of his wife Tom Jefferson's wife so yeah a baby but you know they teach us so they teach us a bit of it to say oh yeah they teach but it's liars there are omissions and it's all to the point of making it seem like we are further today than we were then when it's all the same shit happening that's when they do black and white photos that's what pisses me off the most yeah black and white photos even though my my papa told me stories who was alive and well my papa has told me stories of going to see Martin Luther King when he was a teenager so what do you mean when he was in North Carolina he came to Martin Luther King came to Raleigh and my papa song so you telling me that my papa who alive and well got to see Martin Luther King and I got I got color photos of him when he was a kid so but Martin Luther King he black and white and everything make that make sense.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

They do it on purpose Ruby Bridges got her all in black and white even though she younger than Papa exactly just um recently they were saying I don't know what exactly happened I don't want to get up here and lie but they were like messing with her social media platforms.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

Yeah she she made a TikTok account and they I don't know if she wasn't able to do it or they got it shut down they got it shut down literally the entire page same and wasn't somebody too and even as like it's suppressing stuff but it's also teaching different stuff too because wasn't it I think this is like conversation me and you had to like almost like two three years ago where it was Eli Whitney Eli Whitley whatever who did the cotton gin and she she was saying something about Eli Whitley being black and I was like girl that's a white man I was like what are you talking about? Rikita weren't you were you taught that Eli Whitley was black that's white again it made it okay I was just like I was like that's I was like that's they straight up lied to me to brainwash that's a whole white man what are you talking about like that's not that's not I was still shocked what what is it again you have the what is it the daughters of the Confederacy who like rewrote everything down here of course they try to like make slavery not see how bad as it was so of course of course an enslaved person created the contingent to make his job quote unquote easier right we literally learned about him during Black History Month like that is some evil fucked up and I still I I every time I think about it it just pisses me off because like what do you and then taking a step further most North Carolina schools I wouldn't even say North Carolina a lot of the schools in the South had us going on field trips to plantations yes but girl when I found out about that I was shocked I was shocked and and that it had you what?

SPEAKER_02 58:12

And Rikia you know I don't know how I don't know how integrated your school was in elementary middle school but you know as a black child going on these trips now you gotta deal with the little white kids making jokes making light of it why are we here and that's even if you learning square dancing in PE like I just square dancing is none of this is square dancing it was put into law it was a law girl yeah we had to learn square dancing in elementary school right for racist reasons what the hell not just regular dodgeball like I feel like it was like a two week thing honestly looking back I feel like it was like a two week thing during like that PE because we you know you didn't start doing health until you got to middle school so it was just PE in elementary school I feel like it was like a two week thing what I'm doing what is Quare Dancy that the one like grab your partner like round and round is that what that is okay okay oh my god I hate that you guys had to go through that because that is that is traumatic like why even do they still do that do they still do those field trips I don't think it's a thing anymore and honestly schools don't have field trips like that because I always sign up to be like a field trip person for my nephew.

SPEAKER_05 59:36

They don't be taking them kids nowhere but to the science museum and that is it that's actually crazy now that you think now that you say that that is true. I'm sitting here thinking where my brother and my niece have gone recently nope they don't go nowhere they're in school all day every day oh my god what are they doing to these poor children schools ain't got no money that's a conversation for a different day I know like I mean I I was gonna say more but it just it just goes on and on it it becomes a rabbit hole at a certain point it's just like exhausting this leads to one of my last questions is which um to you I I personally Tia I want you to answer this question first I want you to answer this question first okay I don't even know I'm gonna read it right now I'm gonna read it right now don't you worry don't you worry on page 226 when Gloria and Miss Lottie go to the um go to the diner to meet with the lawyer to free Robbie um we're discussing Willie James Howard Clement one of the old men that's just there because you know they're all just talking he says I'll say what y'all won't the child had no business oh actually I'm gonna read I'm gonna read the love note to um because again this is the lynching of Willie James Howard who wrote a love note to to a white girl um he was drowned a victim of drowning um and he wrote on New Year's Day um and he says dear friend just a few lines to let you hear from me I am well and hope you are the same this is what I said on that Christmas card from WJH with love.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:30

I hope you will understand what I mean. That is what I said. Now please don't get angry with me because you can never tell what may get in what may get in somebody. I did not put it in there myself God did. I can't help that he does can I I know you don't think much of our kind of people but we don't hate you all. We want to be your friend but you won't let us please don't let anybody else see this. I hope I haven't made you mad. If I did tell me about it and I will forget about it. I wish this was a northern state I guess you call me fresh.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:03

Write and tell me what you think of me good or bad sincerely yours um I love your name I love your voice you are my choice he wrote that to a girl named Cynthia Goff she told and he was drowned who she later said that she was very distraught over the death and did not intend for anything to happen to him but obviously something did um but in this book Clement says I'll say what y'all won't the child had no business sending a love note to a white girl some of y'all ain't raising these children to know what these crackers will like they need to and I say this in all seriousness like was he right in his statement and I personally think he was especially given that time he was and then people get mad at him in the book but like he said like you know I'm gonna tell you something that you don't want to hear and I think he was I think he was rightfully justified in his statement I think it's a lot of a lot of what ifs of if he was taught this of being careful if what if what would happen but I I have nothing else to say outside of like yes he was I agree I I did not read that note before now it's my tears I um yeah no I didn't read that before now but what it just shows me is this was just a little boy he was just a baby with a little crush and yes he was right for saying what he said because the truth of the matter is even to this day I am scared for black men who are with white women especially in certain areas I just am I just am because there's there's there's danger in it it just is and I we as the loving people that we are of course we're open we because we don't hate nobody you know but at the end of the day what we have to understand as a people is that everybody is not like us everybody is not like us everybody is not loving everybody is not understanding everybody is not open minded some people are just gonna want to kill you because you are black some people are gonna want to kill you even more if they see that you are with a white person and I think at the very least I'm never gonna tell nobody not to love nobody based on their skin color I wouldn't do that. But what I will say is know what you're getting into at least know you know as a child I would I'll just say for me personally my young child would not be allowed to now once they're an adult and they can make their own decisions and they can they can think about it logically and they can say okay I understand I understand the risks involved here. I understand the danger involved here, the reality of what this might mean, or how we're treated, or what could happen to me, or what could happen to her, how they're treated. You know, I just it's sad that we have to live like that, but the fact of the matter is, yeah, he was right. Somebody should, especially back then when it was as as open as racism is right now, it was way more open then. So his his mom and his daddy, somebody should have told him don't say nothing, don't look at him, don't do nothing. I mean, my papa literally was just telling me and my brother the other day we were visiting with him, and he was telling us, well, you know, when I was about 11 years old, this white girl came in the barn where he was at the he was at the tobacco field with my great-grandmother. She took him with her while she worked. They were sharecroppers. She's he said when while she was working, she would hang, he would hang out in the barn and play. He said one day a little white girl came in there and waved at him. He had already been told plenty of times before, you don't play with white kids. You don't do that. Especially not no little white girl. You don't do that. But he's 11. So, you know, he's like, oh, he ain't thinking nothing about it. He's not thinking anything sexual, he's not thinking anything untoward. He's a kid. So she rolled the ball to him, he rolled the ball back. But guess what? His her that that little girl's mama come in there. Why are you in here hanging out with that nigga? And that's when my father realized, oh, he messed up. Because now his mama came in there, my great-grandmother, and now he got in trouble as well. But the fact of the matter is, just something like that, if the wrong person had walked in there, could have been fatal for my grandfather. And that's just the reality. Whether we think it's right or wrong, it's what it is, and you have to be honest with your kids. You want to raise your kids in love, yes, but you also have to raise them in reality, and that is just all I gotta say about that. I don't know. It's it's it's a lot again. This book was hard.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:24

No, I I agree, and I love your last statement that you have to raise them in love, and you have to raise them in reality.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:33

I feel like back then, for them, how they're supposed to interact with white people should have been the same way you teach a kid, don't touch a hot stove, because if you touch a hot stove, you're gonna get burnt. That is the same type of communication that should have happened. And I know times have changed, but a lot of those same sayings, and I don't say this to be offensive to anybody, but I've always heard that when sometimes white women lie, black men die. That has not changed, that happens all the time, and it's like certain, and like you said, for like your grandpa, but like I think about like some of my little cousins in the back of my mind, they're like, Oh, I'm talking to somebody and I'm dating somebody. In the back of my head, I want to ask, Well, what color is she? What race is she? Not that I that I truly care, but I know that there could be consequences later down the line for who you choose to deal with. And at our age group, we know and see these things. When you start getting down to what it what is it, Gen Z, and then past that, they don't they don't know as much as we do. Yeah, like anything can happen to you, and granted her mom and daddy might be cool with it, but grandma and grandma might not, or uncle at the cookout might not, and then you're put in a situation that you have no control over.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:08

It's scary. Yeah, I think I'll never forget my no one in my family listens to this, so it is what it is. Someone that I'm not related to. It was it's a relative of a spouse of my cousin, um, since she's white, blonde, blue eyes, whatever. Um her husband is a black man. And this was like a couple years ago where I was kind of not really paying attention, but like they were talking about my family, was like talking about her or whatever, and my cousin was like, Yeah, her dad was pissed the night that like she had brought him over to meet her family, and then because again, like we're not related to these people, so they were talking about like that, and we were just talking about how like ridiculous that was. But in my head, I I don't know why I didn't say anything out loud, but it's like, Why would you do that? Why would you bring him over if you know that's how uh your father feels now now? He loves him, so I guess it's fine. That was sarcastic, but it's just like that's what we were saying too. Like when you are making these decisions, you have to think of everything that is going to happen. The conversations that you have to have with your family, the consequences the conversations you have to have with your children when you have children. Um for me as somebody who is with a white man, like when I realize okay, I actually like this person and I want these things to go further, you need to be vetted, you need to be thoroughly vetted before we go anywhere with this. And most people aren't gonna do that because they just we're in love and blah blah blah. It's like no, no. I saw a video the other day where this mom brought her son, black mom, white dad, brought her son back from like the barber or whatever. The dad didn't like it, he called his hair nappy. Like you're telling you that's not the first time that man has said that to your child. And you're telling me this whole entire time you've been married, like there's been no signs with that. Because if that ever happened, okay, I'm sorry, well, you we we're done. We're done. And it's like, and I feel like people don't, and it's like you you need to, if you are going to date outside of your race, there's work that you have there's work that you have to do. I saw a thing on TikTok too. And there's nothing wrong with that. I feel like people want they that when they have to do that, they have to they have to admit that there is something wrong with the system as a whole. Or there was something I saw where it was like somebody was in college, they were an RA, and he was like, Yeah, you would be you'd be surprised the number of women and girls who date black men just to piss off their mom or their dad. And it's like you it's I don't know. I don't know. The fact that it's more common than not, but then nobody talks about it, which is again like you just want to sweep it under the rug, but then something bad happens.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:32

And now everybody's in uproar.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:35

Yeah, and you can honestly and I think that's the thing, you just gotta be you gotta be smart about it. There can't be any, you know, not talking. And this is one of those things where it's like I get so upset with the school system because this is what this is meant to do. It's meant to pacify us as a people to make it seem like, oh, yeah, slavery was bad, wasn't it? Yeah, I'm so glad we don't do that anymore. We're a united front now. We're all, you know, we don't even do nothing like that. Racism doesn't exist anymore. Or if it does, it's only Donald Trump and his followers. But let's just be real about it. There you can be somebody's best friend and realize 10 years in, oh, this person is still racist. Because it's not just about whether you like somebody or not. It's not about that. You can love somebody all day, every day, and still have some kind of prejudice inside if you have not done the work to dismantle it. And if you're trying to start a family with somebody and create more black children, then I'ma need you to take the time to do that work and and risk the fact that this person that you love may not be ready to be in a relationship with the black person, and that's all I ask of black people. That's all I ask of you. Be real about it, be honest with yourself.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:10

It's I just lost my train of thought. I lost my train of thought. It had everything to do with you what you were about to say, and I lost it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:19

Yeah, no, I agree wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:22

It's it made me. I just I just I disagree with that. I just agree with the whole thing. Because even like growing up too, because I I've told you guys before, like from up until middle school, I went to a predominantly black and brown school. They shut down the school in my neighborhood, which is a predominantly black and brown neighborhood. There wasn't another one, so we went to I don't know a white school, predominantly white. Um, and it was maybe me and two or three black boys and four or five black girls in a whole grade. So that was a culture shock to me, too. I was just like okay, what is this, honey? Um and then when I went to that school, my dad, and this I honestly this is why I never like I never understood like how they talk about like when when a black man is in a inner in in an interracial relationship, how they don't talk about race and things. No, my dad was like, you need to be careful, you need to be careful. These people are your friends, but do not be surprised if they say something that is racist, and I don't be and again I'm I'm like 10. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, what are you talking about? They're my friends. Why would they be my friend if they're racist? That's not gonna happen. Turn around to being just micro-aggressive as fuck, and then realizing as I'm older, it's like, oh wait, that was not okay, but you were still my friend. You still had me over your house. I'll never forget the one day I stopped being friends with somebody, and I remember it to this day. I was never down with Republicans, okay? And I know this governor means nothing to you because you're not from New York. Her parents had a picture with Governor George Pataki of New York, and I said, I said, You guys are a Republican? She said, Yeah, and I was like, okay. And I'm like 10 or 11 years old. I'm just like, mmm, I don't know about this. Actually, no. But I think, but again, it's like again, this is like in the 90s, like 2000. My dad is still having this conversation, and the conversations aren't gonna like it's you're still having it, still being told to be careful. When I ended up with when my husband and I were getting serious in the beginning of our relationship, had that conversation again. He had a conversation with him, and then I'm not at no point was I just like, no, don't do that. Like, okay, yeah. Like, I'm t I'm telling you if he's fine, trusting me that I would make the right decision. But I think if people just get over that hump of like, there's nothing wrong with having that conversation, let your ego go, don't be defensive. It is, it is what it is. But again, we don't say all that say, no, Clement. Clement was right, and I like Clement. I could just picture him, that old man, at a bar, at a bar stool, just saying that. And it's just like, yeah. I mean, you see the NFL disagree with him. She might have felt he was being a little rude. Yeah, but did they get quiet at the end of it? Yeah. Well, no, I think somebody somebody says something. He's still just like, you know what?

SPEAKER_05 1:18:35

It's still, it's something like, you know, a typical southern man.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:39

But yeah, he should be coffee with his newspaper probably and it crossed his cross his leg as he said it. Y'all know he shouldn't have said that, miss.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:47

Yeah, somebody said only only one man, only one man said, You wrong for that, Clement. The man in the overall said, the eyes in the room looked away.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:00

We need Clements. We need Clement's around. Let's just be real about it. Because, you know, the world is what it is, and it's very unfortunate.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:11

But to make to make light, to make light of a very heavy episode. It's probably the first time he cried in the episode. Uh you know, I don't think so. You're if again you're listening to this, you read the book, there's a happy ending, okay? Yeah, they they escape, Hattie gets mauled by his dog, all the hints in the and they get they escape or whatever, and they get get free, they go to the other side. When they got reunited with their dad, yes, we're about to go. It's so hard.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:43

Well, didn't his mom's spirit come back too? Oh my god. Yes, and he finally got the scene and get her little white dress. I was like, oh I'm gonna cry again.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:55

I lost it. I lost it. Yeah, this needs to be. Would I watch as if this was like an adaptation? I don't know. I don't know.

unknown 1:20:07

Go watch it.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:09

You know, I would I would I was kind of scared. I ain't gonna hold you when we found out blue was a hang, and then she was describing when he was um messing with him in the bump video. Oh, when he changed his thing, switched out. I was I was scared. Oh my god. It should be honestly. A lot of her books, this is what I always say about her books. Her books be scary as hell.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:32

I want to read that.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:33

But they always be like, yeah, you have to you have to read her other stuff. Because like I said, the good house scared me half the day. But you still learned some things about some jazz musician. Uh you know, the big yeah, that era of black history. It was very good. Um her vampire story.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:53

That's I think I'm gonna start that next. Very, very good. Because you know I love me a vampire.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:57

So which one is that one? Okay, well you'll what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:00

That one's my soul to keep. My soul to keep is a vampire one. And if you haven't read Immortal Dark, that one I have that no no, put it somebody else. It's oh okay. I haven't vampire. No, Sasend Yon Soul Ethiopian Prince Vampire. Like, oh my god, like I love him. Yes, this I'm telling you to read it because I know you don't like you're scared of vampires, but that is where I was saying during this podcast made me realize that like horror books are like my my home. Did I did I go on like a Stephen King bench? Did I buy a book? Have I read it yet?

unknown 1:21:38

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:40

I'm not ready. I gotta graduate to him because he was on cocaine.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:43

Yeah, I'm gonna tell you stories when you when you read his books, it's certain books that's gonna yeah, it's gonna scare you to death. And you know I'm a horror girly, always have been reading horror since I was little, little, little sneak into Stephen King in the house. My mama said, Don't you bring that this time? I was sneaking it in and reading it anyway, but anyways, yeah, his books are disturbing. So honestly, I would imagine build up.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:10

I think you're the one that said this is the close that show is the closest to getting how gross most of his books are. And me watching that show because it's Ricky, I don't know if you ever watched it, but every episode you were just left as kind of inside. I would say the first like 10 minutes of episode one, I just stopped before she finished it.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:31

I just quit 15 minutes into the first episode because I'm like, oh hell no, that's too close to the books. I gotta get out. I gotta go. It was too trailer, but the still burning.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:46

But it's still it's it's just you know what she said. The last the last thing we ever recommend to her that she wanted was stalled burned is she said, you know what? I don't think there's anything you guys say.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:01

Sorry for that friend, honestly. We shouldn't have we shouldn't give you a big that book was great.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:08

She said don't ever recommend any movie for teachers to me ever again after that one. So it's like sorry.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:15

I felt bad for that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:18

Give me a good one for the balance. You know what?

SPEAKER_04 1:23:23

I'm gonna give you a good one that is on Peacock right now that I have this is not a peacock plug, but I have to finish. You mean Tuscany. I'm only 10 minutes in and it's kind of cute.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:31

That's no, I have that on my list. Yeah. Oh, I love it. Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:34

You can watch y'all. I thought y'all watch it so when it means the other brands. Y'all, I should have made, I should have dragged y'all with me because when I tell you it's so cute. She is a pretty cute. But yeah, you have to watch it. It's so cute.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:48

So this is it. That is it for our episode. Their next episode, we're gonna be talking about the popular, the tantalizing. No, is it tantalizing or titillating? Is it titillating a word? Titillating controversial book, Daggermouth, by HM Wolf. So we got a lot to say about that one. So stick around for that, and we'll see you guys soon. Bye. Bye. Peace.