The Scammer

What happens when your roommate's freshly-released-from-prison brother crashes on your dorm couch and never leaves? This week, we're diving into the absolutely gripping and terrifying world of Tiffany D. Jackson's *The Scammer*, a ripped-from-the-headlines thriller that follows a group of college students who unknowingly welcome a cult leader into their living room!

Join us as we unpack the story of Jordyn, a freshman at a prestigious HBCU with a secret mission tied to her late brother, and Devonte, the charming, charismatic ex-con who slowly tightens his grip on everyone around him. We'll explore how grief and vulnerability become entry points for manipulation, how conspiracy theories take root in search of belonging, and why it's so easy to miss the red flags when you're desperate for connection.

We're talking about the real-life inspiration behind this story (yes, this actually happened at Sarah Lawrence!), the insidious tactics cult leaders use to isolate their followers, and the complicated mix of fear and loyalty that keeps people trapped. Plus, we'll debate whether we'd spot the danger or fall for the charm ourselves. (Spoiler: we'd like to think we're smarter, but...)

So grab your snacks, lock your dorm room door, and join us for a spoiler-filled conversation that's part true crime obsession, part book club therapy, and all kinds of gripping. Trust us—you won't look at your roommate's family the same way again!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey, hey, hey, first, welcome to Hut on the Rise, the podcast where representation is crucial and it's always good.

SPEAKER_04 0:17

We got some hot takes, some spoilers, don't worry, we'll always warn you, and deep combos of culture, identity, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Each week we dive deep into a new book, share our unfiltered thoughts, and celebrate the writers who are reshaping the literary world one story at a time.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Have your favorite drink, curl up with us, and let's talk books. The ones that move us, excite us, and keep us flipping pages way past our bedtime.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

So lower your expectations and let's get into the plot.

SPEAKER_04 0:58

Hey everyone, welcome back to season two of Plot on the Rocks.

unknown 1:03

Woo.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

We're excited, obviously. Very excited. Very excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

So y'all know when we go ahead. Oh no, I was just gonna say this break was it was a good break. We needed that break, but also I'm excited to get back to recording. Like I'm so I missed this.

SPEAKER_04 1:27

Me too. And y'all, the struggle of us trying to get these mics together, these headphones together. No weapon formed against us shall prosper.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Okay. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

Single against look. Don't get me stopped, honey, honey. So y'all know we sip a little bit and talk a little bit. So I got me a little strawberry lemon drop that I'm sipping on. What y'all sipping on?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Uh, what do you got? So I have a little like alcoholic seltzer. It's pineapple. It is it is very light, very refreshing.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Um, and I went with the non-alcohol, I can't talk. I went with I went with the non-alcoholic route, and that's just because I was too lazy to get stuff. So this is the Nello Super Calm. If you want to sponsor us, you can period us email right. Anyway, it's the Nello Super Calm that I like to drink. So yeah, it's the raspberry flavor, I think.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

I'm gonna try that. Me too.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Because you said it's like a calming thing, right? It's a calming thing, so like you're so supposed to drink it twice a day. Like it's recommended. Like if you have like ADHD, it helps too because it has L thaney. This has turned to whole entire sponsorship. Send us an email. Right. Pay us for this. Send the chip right now. Send the chip. But but you're supposed to have it twice a day. And it's what's interesting is like when I have it in the afternoon, it really does calm me down. But then when I have it at night, I don't know. It's like my body knows like it calms me down. I get sleepy, there's magnesium in it too. So I'm just like, good. I like coasting, just like yeah, relax.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Anything with magnesium in it, knock me right off.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

That's why I slept through my alarm this morning, Rickia. I heard the alarm and turned it off in my sleep.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Starting off season two with the book, it's called The Scammer, and that's by Tiffany D. Jackson. I know you guys have probably heard of her. She wrote um The Rite of Blood, excuse me, The Weight of Blood Grown. And y'all do y'all know that cover that I'm talking about? It's like orange, and she has the big hoop earring, and like fade.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

I read that book. That was my first book that I read of Tiffany's Betsy's.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

And then too. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Cause you know, I'm just yes, it's based off of she got because it's based off of R. Kelly and his treatment of girls in like music. Because that's what she does. She gets like inspiration from stuff, and then she'll write it. So I was I was stressed out. Very stressed. Stressed out. Very stressed.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

Another one that people love by her is um allegedly and Monday's not coming. Monday's not coming has that really bold red cover. I think I'm gonna read that one now.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, I've had that downloaded for months, and I just everybody keeps talking about how they sobbed at the end, and I'm just like, nah. Now that I read this, now that I've read this, I'm like, okay. I got I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to give it a couple books in between, but I am gonna go back to my days not comfort because I've heard amazing things.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Definitely, definitely. She's so pretty. Like I look at the cover on the back, and then I think she it was like that CBS or MBS, whatever that was that I sent you. I was like, she's so pretty. Yes, she is, and she's actually from New York, uh, Alicia. She says she spends a lot of her time um in Brooklyn, and then she's won like hella awards too, the Walter Dean Myers Honors Book Award and the Coretta Scott King John Stepson New Talent Award. Say that three times fast. Go on here, so go ahead, Tiffany, with your bad self.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

I know that's right.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

Yes, okay, so how many clinks did y'all get the book?

SPEAKER_01 5:44

What it we do on a scale of five, right? Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna tap. I'm gonna do four only because listen. She wrote the hell out of that book. Anybody that can get you that stressed that quickly and consistently throughout the entire book, stressed, an amazing writer, okay. But the way I was stressed, like the book was like, whoa, at a certain point, I had to like put the book down and be like, okay, let me actually get back to real life where there's some joy. Let me get some joy back into my brain. But besides that, like, I I have no notes.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Yes, mine is. Can you hear that? No, that's a that's a click.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

Yeah, look, cooky clack. That's a click, but uh we hear it now.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Let me see if I got a pen. No, God, this is bad. That's four. That was four. That was four clicks. Okay, let me use my nail.

unknown 6:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Here we go. There, there. One, two, three, four. Um, I Tia knows, because I didn't know if you were reading it yet, so I was text I thought Tia had read it too. So I was texting her while I was reading it. I was having a visceral physical reaction to Devante. Like I was stressed out. Like he, like the feeling I had in my body was like, I can't, I like like Tia, I can't do it. Like I had to put it down because it was just too much because he was stressing me out, the kids were stressing me out, the situation was stressing me out. The parents, all of that. Yes, air body. Everything was just like I needed a break in between, and then I finished it. I think I finished it in like two or three days because I just had to like get through the rest of it. Yeah. But it was good. Like again, anyone who can write and get I I don't think I've ever had a reaction like that to never. I'm a stress, a stressful book. Screaming, screaming, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:58

Okay, so I'm gonna give well, I ain't even clicking clacking. Boom, boom, boom, boom.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

There you go.

SPEAKER_04 8:12

Oh my goodness. Oh my god. But again, I like y'all, I gave it four, and the only reason why it wasn't five is because of the ending, which we'll all talk about, and the fact that I kept yelling, this hoe is dumb. This hoe is dumb. This hoe is dumb. Talking about Jordan, mind you, she ain't a hoe. They tried to play her like she was, but she not. Yeah, yes, she's not a hoe, y'all, for real. But she was she was irking my nerves. Yeah, oh god, definitely talk about that in depth in depth.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

Yes, yes, all right.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

So we can get started with some questions. Y'all know we got some questions, and we get y'all some answers. So the first one. Let's do what the book is about. Oh, yeah. I'm getting ahead of myself. Okay, let's do it. What's your thing?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

After you tell what the book is about, I want to share my conspiracy theory. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Oh, yes, but yes. So conspiracy about the book or conspiracy about the actual news?

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Maybe I should save that for the end. I'll save that for the end.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 9:13

Okay. Oh, and with T is referencing to the news, y'all. This book is based off of a true story. Yes. Yes. All this craziness happened in real life. So the craziness is so the main character is Jordan. She is going to a HBCU, and her background, she was, you know, raised by predominantly um like in a white environment. So she goes off to this HBCU, she meets friends, and one of the friends has a brother. But a brother just got out of jail. I mean, fresh out two days, and he comes and lives with them, and then brings all of his beliefs and crazy going on and kind of corrupts them and turns them out and puts them in a cult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

That basically. This is basically what it is. Yes, and it sounds crazy because it was.

SPEAKER_04 10:07

It was as stressful as it sounds, it it absolutely was. It was nuts. Okay, so with that, y'all, what are some red flags that Jordan and her roommates ignored when they first got to know Dante? Excuse me, Devante.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Everything.

SPEAKER_05 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Everything. He's a walking red flag. First of all, if I'm in, I had suitemates, right? And if one of my suite mates came up to me and said, My brother just got out of jail, he needs some place to go, can he stay here? Um maybe we can pitch it, give him some money for a hotel. Something. We can do that.

SPEAKER_05 10:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

But that would be my first, like, sorry. Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

So that was definitely the first red flag. Like, you're a grown man, sir. Why are you here? Like, the first day, okay, you know, maybe. But spending the night, absolutely not. Because again, you're a grown man in a suite full of women, no.

SPEAKER_04 11:12

Um, young women at that. Right. They're like freshmen, so what, 17, 18, 19? 17, 18, yeah. Yeah. Like, that is so scary. Babies. I would have called my mommy. That's what I said. I would have had Frida on the line, like, hello, something's not right.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Yeah. Yeah. You need to come down here immediately. Tanya would have shut that down.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Quick. Look. She would have appeared in the Loving World Black. Just materialized. What the hell going on here? Like, their parents really failed them. Like, I I truly believe that. I think so too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yes. And I think I feel like that was done on purpose because, again, we're talking about our parents, what our parents would have done. We clearly have very present parents in our lives. I think she had to paint the picture that all of these kids don't have a present family to make it easier for them to get corrupted. But I will say Cami was surprised me the most because given her, given my your interpretation of like uh a strong like Christian background, I assume that maybe the family is close, tight knit. So I expected her family to come up first, but you know what? But I'm gonna tell you one thing about Am I wrong in my assumption?

SPEAKER_01 12:31

You're not wrong, but I will tell you this. There are some girls, and and I know this from experience, not personal experience, but having friends that happen too. When you're grown, when you grow up sheltered and you get to college, it's like, oh, freedom. Oh, I'm not telling them nothing. I'm gonna do what I gotta do. You know what I'm saying? Because you you're free. Um so it's like I I understood, but at the same time, like, dang girl, like you're not scared of nothing right now. Like, you don't see this man in y'all. Like, I nobody was scared of anything.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Like, no, and who's the other one? Lauren. Lauren was the girl from New York, right? She pissed me off because she had no discernment. Girl, you grew up in New York, your head's on a swivel all the time. You don't trust anybody. I don't even like when people ask me too many questions. If you ask me too many questions, what do you want to know? What's happening? What's going on? And she's over here just like everything's fine.

SPEAKER_04 13:33

Like she made me say the fact that um Devante and his sister were the only ones cooking. Y'all know what most black people, you don't be playing about food, you just don't be eating everybody's food, and they was just eating and drinking everything that they gave them. Excuse me, yeah. That and the fact that um you know all these famous people. You have all of these accolades and you help Kanye and you help be whatever, and you ain't got no money or nobody to lean on, or you're a Google man. They say he was uh tall, brown skin, um, locks. You ain't got no girlfriend? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

No, seriously. Yes, no pen pack would be the time for you to be a homosexual, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Not splitting and I I have I have one of those lines like highlighted on page 16 where she goes, first of all, assuming this this is written in the past year, so assuming they're in college 2024, 2025, she's like, Yeah, Nas and my brother are tight, his manager introduced them. He used to work in the hip-hop industry a long time, da da da da. Okay. When I think of Nas, I think of the 90s. Yes. So how old is this man? Right. If you're talking about not to say he's Nas isn't relevant now, because he is, but like that's when I think of him in the 90s, early 2000s. Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

That's that's weird. It was sketchy. Sketchy from the very beginning. Yes. I didn't like it. I didn't like it at all. Alright, so we got our little red flag. Okay, so um, I thought this was really good too. Because do y'all think Jordan paint Jordan's parents being black immigrants instead of black Americans shaped her overall experience?

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Oh yes. Oh yes, this is what the diaspora wars are made of. This is uh because they they immediately were like, oh, white, white people, whiteness, like we gotta do that. They had her surrounded by white people, you're not allowed to wear your hair on anything other than straight, like no braids or anything, yeah, nothing.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

And they said they've already they've already been conditioned to think that white spaces equal white success, which we know that's not true. Usually. And well what's what's funny to me, because wasn't she in Jack and Jill? Yeah. So you poo-poo to other like black American American things, but you're uh putting your daughter and your and your son in a black American institution. Right. Which that was very interesting to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Well not I don't I don't I don't believe in that before I say this, okay? Because at the end of the day, we all black. Yeah, I think we have different experiences that make us unique as in the culture of black American versus the culture of like Afro Brazil, Jamaica, etcetera. But like at the end of the day, we're all black, so we should be able to at least relate to each other. Right. However, there is a pattern of people taking bits and pieces of black American culture and saying, we like that, but also y'all niggas together and we're like y'all. And I thought that was perfect. Like, like, what you mean you come to this country and you don't even you can't even respect the excellence of HMC.

SPEAKER_04 17:47

You don't know what it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

They were dogging out a lot. Her parents, the white boy from back home. Like, and again, it's it's 2024, 2025. We should all know how elite these schools are. Yes. Like, I'll never forget at my old job they were trying they if anyone from my old job was listening to this, sorry. But they would pray, they would pray on college graduates to come work there. And I remember like the AVP was like, Oh, we can go to like Howard and blah blah blah also stuff. I was like, they're not gonna want to work here. And he's like, Well, why? Why not? I was like, Be because it's Howard. Because it's Howard. At like you know, they're not gonna come to North Carolina and work for a job that like pays forty thousand dollars a year. Are you crazy? But like I can't say that because it's not gonna understand. It's not gonna relate well. But there's like a there's like an ill illegitimacy. Yeah, that's a word. Illegitimacy to HBCUs. And it's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

No, I agree with both of those, and kind of like what you said, Tia, in my head, I feel like some of the experiences that I've had with um like immigrants and stuff like that will that come over that are quote unquote black. I feel like they know they black, but they're not you people black. Like we black, but we don't we don't act like y'all, we don't do what y'all do. We're it's almost like a superior like a superiority type thing, and I didn't like that. Very arrogant almost.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

But then they get a reality check when they do come around white people and they realize like, oh wait, no, they don't see that differentiation.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Nope.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

At all.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Not at all. Every single immigrant that comes to this country has to like. Unless you're white skin. Yeah, every single one.

SPEAKER_04 19:52

And kind of and kind of talking about her parents, too. I feel like how much is too much? Like, how much is uh kind of I want what's best for you? When do you feel like they're they're they need to draw the boundary line? Or Jordan needed to draw the boundary line because like she said, they had already picked out her school, how she dresses, who she talks to. Like, where's the line?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

That's so terrible.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

They didn't have one, they were extremely controlled.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

I had a thought. I just had a thought. Go ahead. The book is about cults, right? Uh-huh. Cult is is controlled. Oh she doesn't know how to set any type of boundaries because her parents controlled her again, like what she wore, who she spoke to, how she dressed, all this other stuff. So she's already in that condition that's good of it. She has she has the mindset that she wants to break away. But that's like that's prime pickings for somebody who wants to be like a cold reader because you don't have to do that much work. You already can't say no to your parents, so yeah. Yeah. Mmm. That's crazy. I didn't think of it like that. How did that so raven moment or it's like wait? But I feel like to answer your question, I feel like I think it becomes too much when really when you don't listen to what your your child what your child wants. And it's funny that you brought that question up because I just watched a TikTok video earlier where somebody was talking about how a lot of the time parents, like over disciplinarian parents, always skip over the Bible verse that comes right after honor thy father and mother, tend Not provoke your child to anger and how they skip over stuff like that. Yes. And I feel like that's a good example of her parents too, because like they expected this respect from her, but like look at what look at what the provocation led them. Like their son dying, and then all of the stuff happening to their daughter. Yeah. Not to say if you do too much, your kid's gonna be in a cult, but don't just say they could be in a controlling relationship.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

They could be, you know, end up with friends who they don't know how to set proper boundaries with.

SPEAKER_04 22:43

Right, making horrible decisions.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 22:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Or not know how to make decisions at all. I know some people like that.

SPEAKER_04 22:51

Look, crazy. Just look.

unknown 22:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:55

And I feel like we see it more kind of like with like child athletes, or if like the kids who play chess, or the kids whose parents are heavily in the church, it's just kind of like whatever I say goes, or almost like they're projecting. I feel like it's a difference if like you grew up in um not so good circumstances, and now that you have the means to be able to let your kids play soccer or have ballet or different things like that. That's different, but to project all of your feelings or maybe your dreams onto them is never okay. Because you had your life to live, you made the choices that you made, and then you chose to have a child letting them do what they want to do. If it's not harming them or harming you, what's wrong with it?

SPEAKER_01 23:45

I think some parents forget that their children are people, like they are their own person with their own feelings, their own thoughts. Because there are a lot of people who will do exactly what you said, project their own feelings and their goals, just completely forget that their child has any kind of goals of their own.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Yes. And I would have thought that her parents and this is not well, we talk about spoilers anyway. If you have not listened to any part of season one, we talk about spoilers all the time in this, but with her brother dying I think how her parents acted that shocked me more. Because what do you you have one you got one child. Um but yeah, you have a child not to say like I guess I could say their their behavior drove their son away. And now you only have one child and you're doing the same thing that stressed your son out, and you're acting like this. You don't even call her for Thanksgiving. What?

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Cause you're mad?

SPEAKER_02 25:01

Are you 12? Right.

SPEAKER_04 25:02

Didn't even take her, they didn't even drop her off, provide her with decorate her room. Home girl ain't had no sheets. I said, Oh, this is terrible. This is terrible. Me too. Yes, me, she did too. A big hug. Hug. And um, for some more background, too, guys. Um, her brother, his name is Kevin, he actually um committed suicide. So just a little background for that. So that was a really big, you know, triggering experience for her, created a lot of trauma, and it actually is the reason why she went to the HBCU and started the whole revenge plot thing, yeah, which we get, yeah, at the end, yeah. Um, and then I just lost my strength.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Oh no, you're good. Keep going, girl.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

Virate, go, just go with the revenge part two. She added that in like the stages of grief. Do you guys kind of agree with her adding that in? And kind of how do you feel about the ending of the overall book, like the conclusion? Were you guys happy with it, or do you feel like you needed some more closure?

SPEAKER_01 26:18

That's the one thing I didn't like about me too. Yeah, it just felt tacked on, honestly. It felt like oh, I need something exposed. Yeah. And then it was that, and it just didn't hit for me, honestly. It was more so like I mean, yeah, okay. Like, that's kind of how I reacted to it. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

I agree. I I think like so basically with with the what was Devante's sister. This book was so traumatizing to me, I forgot the character's names. What's the sister's name? The sister.

SPEAKER_04 26:58

Vanessa or Nessa?

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Vanessa, yeah. So basically, Vanessa and Devante, they are not brother and sister, they're boyfriend, girlfriend, they're in their 30s, and they just run these scams in colleges.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

Bouncing around.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

And they're the reason why her brother killed himself, basically. And she knew that, and she that's why she went to this specific HBCU because she knew that that's where her next target next target was gonna be, and she I think her knowing the whole entire time that irritated me more because you're watching all of this happen, two people uh most likely died, right? And which Cammy and Legacy dying, I could have done without, honestly. Yeah, but that wasn't necessary, but like to your question, just re I'm a petty person, so like do I love a good revenge? Yes, to the extent that Jordan took it, no, because again, people died. People died, a person got roofied.

unknown 28:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

So like and really to what ended up because they didn't even catch Monte. He was annoying. So like no, like and you fell for this. I mean, not completely, I guess, because she knew what she was doing, but like it it just it didn't make sense to me, honestly. I I kind of honestly my brain kind of just like that part of the book. Cause it didn't make the rest, it made the rest of it kind of not make sense to me.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

Yeah. Yes, because it was like she had you have all this prior knowledge that they're scamming people, but yet you're allowing yourself to get scammed. Because people around you to get hurt, right? Yes, and she was like, she never had like real friends. I feel like their first two weeks was how college should be. They're out, they're having fun, they're meeting new people, they're dressing up, getting cute, and then all of a sudden he comes, and then all of that has changed. Another thing that really pissed me off when they miss homecoming. Your first homecoming? Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

That hurt my heart. Yeah. I'm like, wow. Huh?

SPEAKER_04 29:34

Yeah, I didn't like it. And then to sit on the couch and just kumba y'all.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Do nothing. And again, it's that thing where it's just like I think maybe we have to look at it and like because we're talking about it, we're thinking about it as 30-something year old women whose frontal lobes have completely developed. And and not as like child they're children, they're 18, but they're children, and they still have that mentality most kids do of not questioning authority. And you see this person who's like held to a high regard. Because if you realize in the beginning, Vanessa planted the seeds for how cool he was and how great he was, dropping little nuggets all the time. Yeah, so that me yes, that makes you hyped up to like meet this man, but like even like even stuck, I would have been pissed off. You tell me I can't eat something. Oh my god. The way I like to eat. With dirt tea. Oh, I would have been so mad. And like, and I don't understand, like I don't even know. I feel like after two weeks, I would have gone to the well, she did. She went to the the housing office too late. But then they say she paid her off.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

You see what I mean? She had like paid her off.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

That's why I was like, what? Well, in the in the doc so like Ricky said earlier, this the story is is inspired by a true story that happened at Sarah Lawrence College. And we all watched the documentary, and I feel like that helped me understand it more. Because you'll you finished it, right? Yeah, I watched all of it. Okay, so you know at the end of the documentary, like, you know, like but Sarah Lawrence was like, oh, there was no no documented anything that this man was here, so they didn't do anything about it. And that, and this is not a question that we wrote down, but like, like I told y'all earlier, Sarah Lawrence is five minutes away from where I grew up from my house back home. And this was going on when I was in college, like right in my backyard. There could be cults around us, like right now. Yeah. And where like right by where you live. Someone down the street from me could be a cult right now. Like, that's scary to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

That immediately shocked me when they said 2009. I'm like, right I went this that's the year I went off to college. Like, you telling me? Yes, there are people like this.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Yes, and these are these kids, and they said in the documentary, too, where I think one of them was like, I I I went to Columbia. The sister at Harvard. Yeah, I was doing all this stuff. This sister Felicia, she was gonna be a doctor, and it's like, but how did she like that that's crazy to me? But I think too, like, what's the man's name? Larry or whatever? Yeah, him being friends with that with that commissioner that was and I forgot his name, but that was that did a lot during 9-11. Like, you probably have seen him on the news, but like a kid as a kid growing up in New York, like around 9-11, that man was everywhere. You knew who he was. Gotcha. So I think for them, like a a person's dad is best friends with this guy, like that's a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Because I did I didn't know who he was when I watched the in the real life. Me either.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Yeah, like when I saw it, I was like, oh, I literally was like, oh shit, like him, like he knew he was best friends with him. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

I think now is a good time to talk about my conspiracy theory.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

I want to hear so. I'm gonna tell y'all what I think. I think it is very and y'all. I'm talking about the documentary, the real life of it now, not the book. I think it is highly suspicious that this man was friends with New York City police commissioner, the mayor of New York City, all these high important people. Nobody knew what he was doing. Oh girl, you won't be careful. We gotta be careful. I'm just saying, look, look, I'ma just I'ma say this.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

With everything going on right now, girl.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Girl, I no weapon farmed against me shall shall prosper. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

We're safe. Okay, that's that's we're safe, period. Theme of the night. We're safe.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

But I'm just saying, literally, if you look at some some of the biggest cults in the world, oftentimes they have connections to government. That's just the truth. Even I don't y'all know the Mansons, he was trained by CIA. Yeah, that's documented facts. So I'm just saying it's suspicious. And when these people, it seems like they have an MO of finding psycho psychopathic men who have a gift for you know manipulating people and putting them in situations where they're able to do that for whatever their purpose is. Um yeah, that's my superior theory.

SPEAKER_04 35:12

No, I I can get with it. And uh, I think another another thing, too. So the true story, not and not to make this like a racial thing, but the true story was based off of mostly white people in um some of the Latino community, and then the book was based off of black people because you know it's all black characters and stuff like that. And I feel like that's the thing that kind of throws me off because after I watched that documentary, I went and looked up different black cults. It ain't that many, so that's another thing, too. Like, for all y'all to be quote unquote black, you know, men and women, just listening to whatever this random person tells you, and nobody's like, Oh, this is fishy, and I need to check it out and I need to Google it. Most black people have a very heightened sense of self and sense of their environment. You're not just gonna tell me anything and I'm gonna listen to it. So that's why I was like, mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Because that that was another thing that kind of was like stressful to me about reading it. Because I'm the whole time I'm like, y'all, I mean, he's he does does throughout the book what many manipulators do. They do pieces of truth mixed in with a whole bunch of lies. And everything he was saying, I'm like, okay, Jordan, I can understand you maybe just being new to you, but it's new to all y'all to the point where now y'all think he's a prophet. Because he tells y'all about police brutality and stuff they be putting in foods. That's generally your mama told you that.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Yeah, like yes, and my thing is I think to me out of everybody, I think Cammy made the most believable follower to me. Because because again, her church girl sheltered background, and a lot of the time certain certain Christian denominations, not all of them, don't like critical thinking. So I I can tell her whatever I want, she's not really gonna question me, especially if I have a sense of authority, she's not gonna say anything. Yeah, she's not gonna think outside the box because maybe she's already conditioned to not do that, to not ask questions, and I just lost my train of thought. It'll come back.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

I agree though. Cammy and Jordan, Jordan before the big revelation, Cammy and Jordan made sense to me. Everybody else didn't make sense to me, especially when they started getting people just randomly off campus.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

I'm like, no way, all y'all are this girl. But again, but Jordan was on the revenge pod, so she probably didn't believe any of that to begin with. Because there's a part, what is it, page 48? She what what happened? Like Lauren was saying something, and then she's like, Yeah, in the Tuskegee experiment, how they injected all them black people with syphilis just to watch them die. And then she's like, Well, Jordan was like, Well, no, they didn't inject him with it, they already had it, and they withheld treatment for it. Um, and then she's like, Well, who knows if that's even true, though? Jordan was so me in this in this one sentence. She was like, But I do know. Right. I read this line, so not if I didn't say anything. I like which parts like that made me laugh. So I was like, Well, I'm like, I read about it, it's true. Right. And then my own. I think there are parts where it's like, yeah, so it's like she didn't want to. It's one of those things I talked about in therapy today, where it's like learning where to hold your tongue because you you can say a rebuttal that's based in fact, but if somebody's already too far gone for it, there's no there's no point. So you might as well just because they're already drinking the Kool-Aid, literally. The dirt dirt tea water, dirt tea water.

SPEAKER_04 39:15

It's probably that too. When they went into the alternate universe or whatever, and they was all tripping out, laying on the floor. I was like, what is this? Yes, and she and he's telling these girls that their parents essayed them and all this other stuff. Like, what? To the fact that you didn't go home because you think it really happened, I was like, oh, they done lost it.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

But my thing is if you're trying to get these people's money, what is the reason for you doing all of that?

SPEAKER_04 39:43

Because what did you buy with it? Just like in the um still ain't got no house. Yeah.

unknown 39:51

What?

SPEAKER_04 39:52

The um the documentary, all that money, and y'all living in somebody else's one bedroom apartment.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

This is what I'm y'all listen. My conspiracy. I'm trying to tell y'all now. It's not making sense.

SPEAKER_04 40:07

It's not making sense. I was like, and then took all her yeah, her designer stuff, and and then that's another thing.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Oh, you take my you take my designer stuff. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

And you cut my hair, so I'm walking around here looking crazy too. Oh my gosh, when he cut her hair. I said, oh no.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Oh no. Yes. No, no, no, no, no, no. I he he got away with a lot, and then what gets me is like you're in an area where you can ask anybody for this is another thing too. Asking people for help. I know this is was this was a question that I sent where it was like, how did y'all did y'all feel a certain type of way for Jordan ending up with the only white kid at the HBCU? But now that I'm talking about it, do you guys think that Nick had like a white savior complex? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Okay, okay, okay. That was gonna be my answer because I I promise you that was my thought. I'm like, oh, the one white boy on campus is the one who's like calling him out and getting everything, and he saves her and goes, but I mean, thanks, thank God for him, you know. Right. But at the same time, we're on an HBCU campus. We couldn't. Yes, there was no niggas available.

SPEAKER_04 41:42

No for real, and they made him like the it dude, like everybody wanted him, like he was just so nick, nick, nick. They trying to, you know, sneak a peek while he passed out and stuff. I was like, nah, if that was a woman, you know who I pictured, you know who I pictured in my head who channing Tatum in the step-up movie.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Um dead. I see it.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

I see it.

SPEAKER_04 42:08

I think that's how I picture how he would be. I pictured Jack Harlow. But with blonde hair. Because he's kind of I felt like he was a little swaggy, and I feel like Jack Harlow's a little swaggy.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Well, what they they play his music at work sometimes, and I didn't know I'm not really a him fan, but what's that song? Hello, Miss Johnson. You know why I'm calling it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

Oh, this is cute.

SPEAKER_04 42:35

I do too. I do too. I come back with it. What is that little white boy when you feed me lobster and pasta? Feed me a little bit. I be hungry.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

There is hold on, I'm skipping through to find this quote, but one sorry, when I forgot who said this. When they make medicine, they test it on white lab rats.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

I almost threw my damn Kindle. I said this stupid bitch. How are you gonna equate a white rat to a white? Cause if they did a black rat, it would be more accurate for us. Like, please. Oh my god. A rat is a rat. Like, what? Literally.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

And there is it's the scene where we can get back to Nick in a second. Because I have my theory as to why she ended up with him to begin with. Yeah. Um there's a scene where she goes to Dr. Barnes because you know, Nick had to introduce him to introduce her to the professor that's gonna save everything. Because he's you know he was low-key, no help. Yeah. No, he just kind of and that's but that goes back to the documentary because freaking Star Lawrence didn't do shit either. Right, right. But um he said something that is what I personally believe. When it comes to certain conspiracy theories, and I was never able to like get it out of my head like perfectly. But he says, you know, I have my own theory. I believe that conspiracy theories have done an equal amount of damage as racism has to our black communities. From enslavement until now, we above most others have earned the right to be suspicious of white people's intentions after our history with one another. But our paranoia has rendered us frozen in our own imaginings. When you uproot and strip humans of their culture, you leave them vulnerable prey, easy to attack with stories rooted in believable truths. All it takes is to add a bit of fiction into the narrative and into the narrative you want a person to follow for it to be gospel. It doesn't mean we're gullible people. It means our collective generational trauma has us questioning everything. My honest advice is to continue the practice of skepticism with the critical eye. For example, if someone's what I say all the time, if someone says they have a source, tell them to provide three more. Yes. The ancestors gave us sharp instincts for a reason.

SPEAKER_04 45:10

Naneda, I agree with.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

So like he yeah, so she was able to put, and that's what she said too in her in her interview was like she wants people to practice discernment for stuff like that. And that's something, and are some conspiracy theories true. But then if it can to me, if a conspiracy theory is true, then it's not a conspiracy theory, it's just what it is. Right. But certain ones where there's just like these really don't make sense, but again, it's like the thing where it's like this is doing damage too, because like to me, when you want someone to control, you want them to be ignorant, you want them questioning things. So why not change how certain things sound? It gets people people don't get it gets people sick or people don't start doing certain things, like feel how you want about vaccines, but we have a freaking measles outbreak right now. Right. Which we haven't seen in ages.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

How long? I want to push back on that a little bit.

unknown 46:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

From my perspective. Okay. Only because I feel like it's can I say that? I was about to spit it out. Um I feel like there are certain conspiracies that are more prevalent in white communities versus black ones. I think vaccines are one of those personally. I don't see many black people being there. I ain't gonna take no vaccines never. Most of the time it's gonna be more like conservative Christian type questions. Um that's where I see it most of the time. Yeah, and like he said, and I I guess actually that quote said it too like, you know, I feel like a lot of the times if the conspiracy theories that are gonna be in black communities are gonna be more social, are gonna be more careful of that because historically they did that. Which to me feels like okay. I mean, if it's wrong, it's wrong. And when we find out it's wrong, let's make sure that's corrected. I feel like that's so understandable. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? But like you said, if we can get sources, if we can think critically, if we can make sure that our sources are good sources that will go a long way. Yeah, and and I'm only saying this because look, they already know y'all. I'm I'm a certified conspiracy theorist, and I have been thoroughly vindicated over these past couple weeks to a couple months. I'm gonna tell you right now, I feel so sure of myself today. But but with that being said, like we said, we need sources, people, okay, my fellow conspiracy theorists. Let us find books and group and research, okay?

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Yeah, she sent me she sent me a tinfoil hat meme. And I was like, I was like, give me, give me, I was like, give me a visor because let me words like at least like some of it is there, but not like the whole thing. You know what I mean? Like give me that because I mean this, you know me. I'm I'm a typical what's your source? I'm I'm definitely what's your typical look at it. Okay, let's look at it because I've been dropping this.

SPEAKER_04 48:31

Can I show you? Can I show the people? Let me turn my brightness now.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Oh boy, definitely not y'all.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

We'll put this on the socials so y'all can see what we talk about if you're not watching. Can y'all see it? Yeah, I can see it. Bruh, no, but for real, cuz no ma'am. Here's your baddie's tinfoil hat.

SPEAKER_04 48:50

Yes, get it all. I feel like that too, and not just the research, because you know sometimes it's the messenger opposed to the message. Get a good messenger, get somebody who can talk well.

SPEAKER_05 49:04

Yes, this is a good point.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

But and I was going back to um this one. We had A B C D going back to A. We're getting it back. We're getting it back. I think how Jordan grew up, I think her ending up with Nick wasn't annoying. Yes, it was annoying, but it made sense. Yeah. Because she was so used to that, so maybe that's like her little whole toe dip into because he was like, because you know, he was he was a black kid, he was raised by black people. Well, her name is Anita. She's like, let me just uh the black community. Yeah, so let's maybe after that maybe she goes a little bit a little bit darker. I agree. Next is a biracial, yeah. Okay, then a light skin.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Yeah, just gradually, yeah, one step towards Nick's.

SPEAKER_04 49:58

I feel like that was kind of like her centering point, too, like her one sense of familiarity, like you're around all of these things you're not used to. It's like I'm gonna just get with that because I know I know that's safe. And he honestly was caring, like besides all the other stuff, he really was he was looking out for her, and I feel like they trauma bonded too. After finding out that his ex-girlfriend was, you know, hurt or killed or whatever, and then her brother, I was like, Yeah, they got a little trauma bond. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Do you think do you think the chapter where they went back to to his place for Thanksgiving was necessary? Because part of me felt just like it was there to show that he was, you know, down. He was that's really it.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

You know, I think part of it I liked it. Yeah. I don't know, like I I feel like it was necessary because it did show that he was authentic. Yeah, where he where he came from. Okay, okay, okay, cool. Yeah, because I'm not sure I honestly to be honest, I wasn't sure about him until that part. And I'm like, oh, you gotta black play mama, yeah, and black play siblings. You so you really real um okay. Yeah I kind of let it go after that. Yeah. Um so yeah, I I think it was kind of necessary just for us as the reader to trust it.

SPEAKER_05 51:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

That's true, that's true. Yeah, because she wasn't she wasn't making good choices. We just needed one good choice. One for that. One.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

And that little scene with the oh I'm sorry, Rick. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 51:43

No, no, go ahead. I was about to say, no, I agree. I feel like they I wanted them to keep that part and not the part where he went to his own house and his parents weren't even there.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

Yeah. Yeah. We could have just stayed at Miss Anita's. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Um, and I did like the little part where they went in the boat to the little you know, yeah. That was cute. Yeah, that was cute. Yeah, that was really cute. But we could have saved the house part, that was unnecessary trauma for them both.

SPEAKER_04 52:13

Right, because where your mom and daddy at? Like you say, it's a holidays. People do not be playing about Thanksgiving. That's one holiday that people do not play about. And everybody just doing their own thing. I don't like it. I don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

I think another thing that was important about that part is it was kind of the first time she got away from everything and was able to think about it outside of the situation. Because she would, I mean, this is why I don't like the ending, okay? This is why I don't like the ending because not without the context of the ending, anyway. When we get to that part, it is the first time that she's separated from everything, she gets to think clear-headedly about stuff she's removed from the situation, so when she goes back, she actually knows what she's doing. Now, in the context of the ending, I don't know what the point was. I mean, to be honest, because she knew who he was. I I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Yeah, we all made the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Yeah, that was like trying to make sense of it. But would you I feel I wonder if it would have been like not better because it was good. Okay, let me use it better, I can think I can't think of another word. Better if we knew what she was doing from the jump. Because you could still make it suspension, because then it's like, okay, now now you're undercover. And now you're trying to, and then I think I would have liked it if I saw her doing like um because now knowing the ending, I think she knew that what's his face drugged her her drink. And she just let Nick go ahead and drink that. Right, right. No. Or stuff like that. Um but I wonder if that would have made it more thrilling and not as stressful.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

And and I think it wasn't thrilling to me. Yeah. That's and I think that's uh where that last star comes in. Because stress, being stressful, like I said, phenomenal writer, a great book. Like I I too read that book really fast because it's like one of those books you can't put down. You gotta figure out what's going on. But I think that's the part that could have made it high for me, is if it was more thrill, a stress. Because it was just constant stress, constant, like, oh god. Yeah. But there wasn't really like wasn't really action, it was just more so you terrified and horrified the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:11

It's like a crippling scare too, because you know, like you scared, it's like fight or flight. I feel like she was just stunned the entire time, and then going back to what we said, it's like you already kind of knew the outcome. Or I feel like if it would have been set up where we know for certain that this is set on revenge, because this is just like little nuggets, because it's like we made it, Kev. We're here, Kev. It's like, well, who is Kev?

SPEAKER_00 55:40

Like you mean with the page 300 and something tell me who this kid is.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Okay, those are you for me?

SPEAKER_04 55:54

I'm confused. Where is it if give them alone? Where the hell is Kevin? Y'all live in the head in the house. Y'all own the minimum.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Kevin, yeah. Oh my god. But no, that like that that that's one part that irritated me the most, like the whole Kevin stuff. Cause like I need to know, I need to know who this man is because why do you keep talking about him? Yeah, uh what's going on?

SPEAKER_04 56:28

Girl. Uh a miss. A miss. And I I liked the um the different uh like house party scenes too. I feel like it was real. I was like, ooh, okay, and the cat was stepping and stuff. I was like, mm, okay.

SPEAKER_03 56:46

That those parts made me miss customers. Yes, not everything was right, right. That part made me miscelly. Like the happy parts, the happy parts.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Can't you imagine if like stuff like that was going on on your campus?

SPEAKER_04 56:57

Like, I know I'm my frontal lobe wasn't fully developed, but I know better than that, and not to speak down on anybody where that is has ever happened because it is a very traumatic experience, but no, I'm not doing that, and low-key, I'm a little bit scary. Like I'm a thug, but I'm a scary thug. Like, I'm not gonna do that. Literally, like you said, I'm calling my mama, and I'm calling my daddy needs to come to the backup because get me out of here.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

And speaking of mom dad coming, how did you feel? I know it's not a question, but how did you feel about her parents showing up? Because that part irked me.

SPEAKER_04 57:46

Hot ass peppa.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Do you hear me? Pissed me clean off. Like, how you gonna show up and then that's your reaction? You you see she's skinny, everybody else sees she's skinny. Yeah, you ain't even commenting on that. You talking about what you paying for.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

Called her a hoe too.

SPEAKER_04 58:05

And you know you're a child, you knew she was very sheltered. Are you just gonna believe some strangers? Your girl is out here hopping and bopping on different dudes.

SPEAKER_05 58:15

Crazy.

SPEAKER_02 58:19

I hated her parents, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:20

And then even with all that happening, they didn't even bring they didn't take her back.

SPEAKER_05 58:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:26

So y'all can come down here to see if you know she's doing something bad, but y'all couldn't come down here to make sure she was good when she first got there.

unknown 58:35

Hmm.

SPEAKER_04 58:36

Do y'all care for real? No.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

Well, they cared at the end. That's why the that's why that ending pissed me off too. Like now, now, now my mom is helping me decorate my no. I'm sorry. You should have done that the first time.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

I probably should. She would have been locked out of my life forever, especially after that fiasco. You come to my campus just to call me a hoe. Girl, if you don't get out my face, I would have never talked to them again. Please, never talk to them again. Please.

SPEAKER_04 59:07

I don't understand why they don't talk to us anymore, the fool. Literally. That's why.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 59:12

That is why. So I know I feel like we kind of brushed on them a little bit. Do y'all feel well I I think we kind of did. The overall influence. Like, why was it so easy?

SPEAKER_00 59:30

I think because they were kids. It was because they were kind of taking that.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

Yeah, brain's not good.

SPEAKER_03 59:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

Unfortunately. Even in the documentary, it was like, oh, especially the most clips. Girl. It's so sad. Like they were clearly terrified. And you could tell that their brain was literally not functioning correctly. This man is literally goading you into telling a lie on yourself. Yes. To be truthful, quote unquote, with him. Your brain is not capacity, baby. Like, at what point do you say, okay, something he's crazy, too? Let me get up out of here. Like, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:34

I feel like the only girl, what was it, Raven? With the dark hair and a little Raven was off the rip. She was like, no, he's weird. He's a sicko. I'm not I'm not rocking with him. But I was like laughing a little bit just then because when every time that girl was yelling, he was smacking himself.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Oh my it and I will say too, like, what? Anyone who's listening to this, it's what's the Sacramento? It's called Stolen Youth. Yeah. Stolen Youth. Yeah. I would say watch that because I saw in the in the in the Black Girls Read 2. I don't remember it was the Black Girls Read 2 or the Black Girls Read page. It was one of the one of the two. They were talking about this book scammer and everyone was talking about how like pissed off they were with the characters, da da da da da. But for me, I feel like watching that documentary helped me make more sense of it because now you get to visually see how you're like breaking down these kids, and it made me feel like more sad for them than anything. But I think like if if you're reading this book, I recommend watching that documentary because that'll help you get it a little more. Because that was that that that's a lot. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:55

And they said it happened, what, over 10 years?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

Yes. I was like, what? And then I don't know if you got to the part, um, uh Tia, but he ended up in North Carolina. No, I did not. Where in North Carolina? Yeah, I forgot. Pitts was it Pittsburgh. I think it was, yep. Yeah. So he said he was in three states. Well, he had two of them. He had Felicia and then he had one of the other girls. And she got arrested too. So yeah, yeah. So she got arrested too. Felicia's fine. She's recovered or recovered. Okay, girl. But yeah, the other girl got arrested. So he was like in three states doing all this stuff. Like.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:35

And my question still is where is the money? Because even when they moved to his It had to be. It was the house was junky. I was like, what? Where the money going?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

No. And like the parents, too, like, like I said, the only parents that really that I hurt for were the Dominican kids' parents because they don't speak English. They don't really know how to be in a situation like this. Because they even said, like, our family is close. We don't do that. The other parents were like, what do you mean you're sending your kid an email? Go, go to the school.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:24

And I feel like even if my like my parents didn't have the money, they was gonna find it.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

They was gonna find it to make sure that- What do you mean she's telling you that she got molested? And your response is, well, I don't want her to come here and kill herself. Right. Girl, if you don't go up there and see about your baby, girl, they was blowing me. They was blowing me. Gosh, I be wanting to say too much. I'm gonna say this, but we can cut it out if it needs to be cut out. Why do people be acting helpless about everything except for a nigga walking down the street? Say that.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:06

Helpless. Say that. Cause what do you say it?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

I just could not understand. Like what under what circumstances do you leave your child knowing something ain't right? And you don't go up there in person, bang on some doors.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

I I think their mentality is very much like they're 18. They're an adult. I can't make them do yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

My mother goes to Mexico today. Bro. If I told her something was was a little with something. You're telling me I couldn't go a couple. I mean, it won't even a couple states for some of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:58

Right. And even so, like, that's your responsibility as a parent. You don't stop being a parent. Well, I would pray that most people don't stop being a parent at 18. And that always throws me off too. Cause I honestly feel like the age of adult needs to be changed. Because in May, I'm raising my hand asking Miss Jackson, can I go to the bathroom? And then in June, I could do anything I want to do. I'm confused. I don't, I don't, I don't know what's what. And now you're giving me all of this freedom and credit cards. They was running up her credit cards and everything. Like, please make it make sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

You can't drink a drink until you're twenty one. Ain't no way you're supposed to be able to sign leases, right? Sign credit card agreements. But you know what I'm trying to say? Like, no. They're they're children. Eighteen or children.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:52

You can't even rent a car until not rent a car, you can't even yeah. Yeah. What, twenty three? Oh something like I think I think it's 20 something. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I thought it was 25. Maybe that's too old. No, it might be five, honestly. Yeah.

unknown 1:06:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:09

I think it might be because I feel like when we was in college, we went to Panama City for spring break, and my parents rented our cars.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:17

Mm-hmm. That's what we're probably.

unknown 1:06:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

But yeah, if they're old enough to go to war. I mean not. Because you're gonna jump into your bag again with the big thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

I'm just saying. I ain't been I'm I'm 10 for 10 this year, okay? I'm a screaming from the rooftop. Every chance I get, I ain't playing.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:43

She would have a sign says, I told you so. Yeah, but I forgot how to put that little meme with that guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:50

I told you so. Yes. That's how I feel right now. Oh my god. We need to make you one. So you can like have it and we can just use it. Use it for stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:05

That could be that could be like our little uh sticker we could put on the merch store. Just have like a little cut out.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:11

I look we need to remember so we can do that. We need to I'm gonna write that down. I'm write this down right now. Yes. Okay. I feel like my last respected me. Oh, you're welcome. I love it. Because people really is crazy, and sometimes you can't fight crazy with crazy, then you fight crazy with the truth.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:33

That's the truth.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:36

So Devontae. Do y'all really feel like he was a true villain? Or do y'all feel like it was Vanessa?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:46

That's a good question. They all both both of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

Bonnie and Clyde. Bonnie and Clyde. But she was the mastermind. 100%. Yeah. Because he won't get smart talking about some white rats and black rats. He won't that smart.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

And I don't know. What did he say? Uh-uh. You keep keep going, because he said something really stupid. I gotta find it because I highlighted it. That's all I was saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:13

He's just not smart enough to have pulled off this whole thing on his own and come up with a plan. I don't think he was that smart.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:19

Right, and he's the one, and you know what else? I'm I'm sitting here thinking. Did he really go to jail?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:27

You know. Ooh.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:30

Because she just said he was getting out of jail. Did he really go or was that just part of the block?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

I know he did at one point because he had a probation officer. Okay. I don't know if it was that recent. It was recent. Oh, that's true. Because they was talking about like it seemed like towards the end they were talking about some stuff he had been doing over these years that they were trying to catch up. Yeah, you're right, you're right. So you might be right. He might not have just got out.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:57

Because it's like This is true. The whole this really quickly, this is not what I was wanting to find. But the that part where he goes, where Nick goes into the house, goes into the dorm, and everyone's looking at him, and then he goes, um, that they can walk into a black man's house without permission. Sir, you are squatting. Literally, you don't get no blue fear. And nobody blinked at him saying that. Like he really was just like, What? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:29

I hate that man. He was popping up at the parties, he was popping up in the the student buildings, and that's a a thing too. I feel like the university should have some more responsibility because why aren't y'all cracking down on stuff like this? Even though nobody reported it. I feel like when I was standing in the dorms, like our RAs and stuff, they would check.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:51

Oh they were talking about he had one over the RAs. Like, how do you win? Y'all see this grown ass man walking in this this building every day? Y'all not stopping him. Oh, yeah, there's some liability.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:05

And he was daffing up the security guard too. So is he a part of the gig? This is true.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:13

Like, hold on, where's what what is something stupid he really freaking said? Oh, this one. Um fries are dipped in oil made of pig sweat. Now you are saying, again, granted, do I eat pork? No. Do some people believe the pork is yeah, okay, cool. But you're gonna sit there and tell me that, and I'm supposed to be like, yes. You know what? That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:47

As a as a non-pork eater, pigs don't sweat. Yeah, they literally don't. But they make it why would they make oil out of sweat? These are the things I needed them to ask questions on. Like, really? How are they collecting this sweat? How? What oil are they incorporating it in?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:07

That part to make it what it was it was a mess. And again, with her, even when she was away from him, she still wasn't eating right. So, again, you are fully aware of what's happening, you're here for revenge, but you're still doing everything he tells you to do. So it's kind of like he's he still had mind control of her on accident. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:33

Yeah, yes. But did he, but did he though? Because she knew from the beginning who he was, but did she? That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:41

Well, she did say at the end she was like, I underestimated how convincing he could be.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:48

Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay, she didn't say that. Maybe I blocked that part out because I was so irritated.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:52

Honestly, I guess. But I think I think maybe she went in. This is this is this is my explanation for it. She went in thinking that she was stronger than she was or that she could handle things badly. Maybe she really could, which obviously we see that she had a poor relationship with batteries and didn't really know how to fit them for herself. Coming from her situation with her parents and depression by her brother. Maybe she went in thinking, oh yeah, I'm about to have control over the situation. And then when confronted with the reality of oh wow, friends for the first time. Wow, black friends for the first time. Right. Wow. Somebody who is acting caring towards me for the first time. Wow. Like all at once. Okay, now that I'm saying out loud, it's it's that's making me feel better about it. About the thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:53

Yeah, right. You have to that's why we do it. That's why we do what we do.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

We do this all the time. If this is your first time listening to us, we'd be starting off one way about a book and ended up another way.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:03

But yeah, that's you gotta listen all the way through. Exactly. Yes, yes. No, but I I can definitely be the reasoning for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

Yeah. Okay, so maybe that makes me less irritated with her. And I know you got one more question, Rickia, in there, but real quick, she says at the end, do you do you think that she should ever tell Nick what she did? Because she gets to a point where she's like, I don't know, I don't know when I'll tell him. Blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:36

Oh, that relationship is not. Do you think she should ever say anything? That relationship is doomed. She she gon' tell him if she don't tell him they still trauma bonded, it ain't gonna work. But if she do tell him, if somebody told me, oh, I was worried for your life, girl. I was scared for you, got drugged because of you, and you tell me you knew what was going on the whole time. Oh, get the fuck out of my face and don't come back around here. Yeah, because you are drama. That's how I would feel.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:13

That's true. No. I'm sitting here thinking, like, for not for real. That's I feel like that's how I feel as well, because it it wasn't built on like a sturdy foundation to begin with. Everything about it was Rocky. Even even their first interaction, it was low-key beefing.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:32

Yeah, yeah, she went, she came for his throat. Yeah, she was disrespectful. It's like oh constantly. It was just like, oh my god. Does she have a point though? Yeah, but oh well.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:49

So I feel like I guess I would consider him a main character, but for the other two characters, Cami and Legacy, do y'all feel kind of like slighted that we didn't really know what happened to them?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:09

Cause I still don't really know. I don't know why why we don't, you know? I feel like there was opportunity. I feel like the ending the ending was a little rush for me. We had like two pages of wrap-up, is what it felt like. Yeah. Like, okay. Actually, I knew about this. Also, my mama decided to come help me get my dorm room together. Devontae escaped. Like, that's kind of that's how I felt. Literally, when I finished the book, I was sitting right here.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:45

I put my I was breathing, I put my candle down, I was like, okay, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:05

Like again, okay. So what does that mean? Right. Like, so what does that mean? Like, yeah. It's I don't I think it wasn't necessary. I don't think it would have taken away from anything if it wasn't added at all.

unknown 1:16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:24

I think it was just a plot point to like get her sister to come down because she didn't come home for Thanksgiving. But like maybe maybe if you call your family and it's like, hey, I actually don't believe in God anymore because this because of X, Y, and Z, you can use that as a plot point for them to come down and be like, well, what the hell is going on? Or the boyfriend. So you're breaking up with some Yes. And and then legacy dying didn't really make any sense to me either, because I thought he was kind of a throwaway character anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:57

Me too.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:58

And it's just like he just stopped being in the being in the chapters. It's like, oh, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:03

Yeah. Yeah. I think it would have made more sense. Who is the other one? The one that was friends with Nick, and then he ended up not being friends with him anymore. Because he got in the cult. Kareem? No. I was Kim. Something. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. I think that would have made more sense if he died. Yeah. Because I could see him and Devontae going like toe-to-toe as like two of them like trying to fight for power. Yeah. But the Cammy and Legacy dying, it was just like there for a shock value, and that was really it. Especially you're not gonna tell me then what happened to them. Like I she hopes for the best. Right. She hopes they're still alive. Like that's girl.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:48

Found the blood and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:50

It's just kind of like do you think Devontae or Vanessa killed killed Cammy?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:01

I think it was both of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:02

I feel like it could have been a both, or honestly, Vanessa, because technically, Devontae didn't really do anything. Like he didn't cause any like physical harm to anybody. Like anytime anybody was like beat up or punched or hair, he didn't actually do it. His followers did it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:19

He did try to break into Jordan's room one day the night that he roofied her. He did try to break into her room to essay her though. But she locked it.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:27

But I and I feel like too, I felt like that was kind of like uh not the essay part, but the usual. Because remember at one point he was like, he asked us to leave the door open so he can come and go as he pleased. And then she was like, she used to leave the door open so that they can use her credit cards. So I feel like he was probably just in there trying to do his usual, like, oh, her door, her door lot tonight.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:48

It's it could be that. Yeah. Because I know Cammy and him had sex. She lost her V card to him. Why? And then Devante and Vanessa are together, so maybe Vanessa was jealous. That could be it. So I think she did it. Poor Cammy. Yeah. And her family has no idea what's gonna happen to her, like at all. They're just stuck.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:15

Justice for Cammy.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:16

That made me bad.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:18

And I'm thinking Cam, because you um going back, okay, so the correlation, the documentary, and then the book. I wonder was Cammy the one who went on to um be like a sex worker? You know, she kind of like separated from everybody else and was in an apartment. She was the one making all the money. I wonder if he kind of like returned her.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:43

To me, I maybe they talked about this in the book. Sex is a very intimate thing. It's two people coming together. It can be a spiritual experience depending on how connected you are. She thinks they have a connection. She could be going through a religious psychosis as she thinks it's it's this whole thing. And now this man that I love who loves me that took my virginity because he cares about me. Now he's asking me to do this stuff, so yeah, I'm gonna do it because poor Cammy.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:19

Yeah, she needed you know how they make like a little mini book afterwards. We need a mini book because what happened to her?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:28

Where's she at?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:29

Yes, like please. Yes, tiff tiff.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:32

Let us know, girl.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:33

Please, but no, overall, thoroughly enjoyed the book. Like I said, it gave me a low-key little mini heart attack half the time, but it was good. It was good.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:44

Yeah, it was. I flew through it. Yes, it was very good. Yes. I it's been a long time since I read a book that fast. Because I I just had to. Like it was there was anxiety reading it, but there was also anxiety stopping because at the same time, that's true. There was never any breaks. There was no there was no slow period to that book.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:07

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:08

The closest thing we got to the slow period was Miss Anita's house.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:11

Right. That's true. I'm trying to look at our stuff for next. We got a stressful book next month, so I gotta do it. Wait, what's go ahead and let them know what's our stressful book? I don't I don't wish you well. I'm assuming that's gonna be stressful because it's about a podcaster who like finds a murder. Oh, yeah. So y'all make sure y'all tune in for that. But that's for April. But our next one is for March. Is I'm Medusa. A retelling of Medusa through As Medusa as a me too. Black woman. That was so good. I love that book so much.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:46

I gotta definitely start that now that this one's finished.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:50

I cried. I don't know how my how big cried prior. I don't know how big of a prior you are, Rikia. I know tears of a prior.

unknown 1:21:58

I am.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:59

So like she sent me a video. She sent me a video last week that like I would have been perfectly fine not thinking about it of this girl crying because giraffes' necks being so tall that they're they can't hide, they can't hide from the elements.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:16

I ain't gonna lie, I was sad too because the video and their little hair was blowing.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:20

I was like, oh Justice for giraffes too, because it's not right.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:28

No, and there's there was another meme where it was just like I knew I was cooked when I started feeling bad for inanimate objects as a child. And I was like, you know what? Yeah, like I used to play with I used to play with my toys. Like, if one of my toys wasn't getting enough attention, like I would feel bad and I'd be like, I'll play with you tomorrow. Yeah, like rotate them. It's okay. I'm still your friend. You still my friend. And if toy story is true, then they're becoming alive, right? So they're making another one of that. They're making another one.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:06

Woody Baldy. Yeah, I'm so excited about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:14

I mean who did that? You do two and two.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:19

Yeah.

unknown 1:23:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:20

Okay, and Rakey, you still have to watch Inside Out 2. That one went to that one though.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:25

I do.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:27

My therapist told me to watch that. She's like, it just came on just like this like two years ago. She told me to watch it, and I was like, okay, cool. And then I'm just like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:35

Like, I'm just like I cried so bad at both movies. And I don't know why I thought to go in the movie theater to see the second one. I don't know why I did that. I was so embarrassed. I was in there like really sobbing.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:53

It'd be like that. It'd be like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:55

It was bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:56

A little tear. Sometimes you gotta let it out here.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:00

But no, love it.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:03

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:04

But thanks guys so much for tuning in, and we will see you guys next time. Make sure you read I'm Medusa.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:13

Follow us on the socials. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Before we go, y'all. What announcement. If you didn't see it on our social media, we are an official sponsor of the Black Romance Book Festival 2026.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:30

Yeah, yeah. We in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:33

It's serious. That's so exciting. Very serious. Yes, if you're gonna go there, say hi.