King of Ashes

Y'all, buckle up and hold onto your hats because this week, we're getting our hands dirty in the complicated world of S.A. Cosby's King of Ashes! We're talking about crime, drugs, mayhem, and a murder mystery that twists tighter than a backroad in the South.

Join your hosts as we realize how murky that hero/villian line is and get into some literary analysis that makes us feel like Mr. Cosby just might be a genius!

So, pour yourself a sweet tea (or something stronger), and get ready for a spoiler-filled deep dive into the book that proves that EVERYTHING BURNS. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:01

Hey, hey, hey, book lovers. Welcome to Plot on the Rock, the podcast where representation is crucial and it's always for the plot.

SPEAKER_01: 0:10

We're your hosts, Alicia, Rikia, and Tia, three friends dedicated to honoring the brilliance and the power of black and PLT authors.

SPEAKER_03: 0:17

We got some hot take, some spoilers, don't worry, we'll always warn you, and deep convos on culture, identity, and everything in between.

SPEAKER_00: 0:26

Each week we dive deep into a new book, share our unfiltered thoughts, and celebrate the writers who are reshaping the literary world one story at a time.

SPEAKER_01: 0:35

And fair warning, if you're here for a calm, quiet book club, this might not be what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_03: 0:41

Grab your favorite drink, curl up with us, and let's talk books. The ones that move us, excite us, and keep us flipping pages way past our bedtime.

SPEAKER_00: 0:50

So lower your expectations and let's get into the plot. He is a that is what I said.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13

He's a Crosby. He's a Crosby.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20

You see, I'm country. Keep that in there. It's fine. It's fine, guys. It's essay. See, I almost did it again. It's the country. It's cut it's the country. S.A. Cosby. From Virginia.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35

It's very valid.

SPEAKER_00: 1:38

I had it. I have to swing one way or the other.

SPEAKER_01: 1:41

Cosby.

SPEAKER_00: 1:43

If I don't do it specifically. But yeah. This was a really good book.

SPEAKER_03: 1:48

It was good. I enjoyed it. My first one by him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:51

It was. I need to get like literally, this is the first time in a very long time that I've like, I need to get someone's whole bibliography. Everything that he has written. I need it. It's so good. And I was when I was on Goodreads, or Reddit, one of the two, I don't remember. Someone was like, Oh, did you catch the nod? So I think it was his other book, All Sinners Bleed, or something like that. So I guess there's like a little little Easter eggs from one of his other books in there too.

SPEAKER_00: 2:25

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01: 2:26

So someone named Ike. I don't know who that was, but they said referencing someone named Ike that was in this. So I need to look at his other stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 2:34

Yeah, for sure. Because it was so good. Um okay, so let's let's just get into the questions. Well, first, actually, let me let me just preface this by saying we do do spoilers here. So if you haven't read the book, read the book. Like, you want to go into this blind. I promise you. You want to go into this not knowing what is going on because it is a ride. Yes. Yes. It is a ride. So there will be spoilers from here on out, but we're just gonna chat about it. Um what is everyone drinking though?

unknown: 3:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 3:16

I'm not drinking, I'm having lemonade.

SPEAKER_03: 3:20

A little lemon taste. Lemonade. Yeah, I figured since we were this book is based kind of in the country, I got some moonshine. It's butter pecan flavored with a little cinnamon just because I was being extra today.

SPEAKER_00: 3:33

No, that sounds so good. That sounds so good. I have a hard seltzer, it's pineapple flavor, and I got that for no other reason than I love pineapples. It is good. It ain't it ain't it ain't quite as pineapple-y as I have wanted it to be, but you know, next time I know to actually get some pineapple juice to add to it, yeah. That'll be good, you know. Yeah. Oh, I feel left out. It's okay, friend. I was sober last show.

SPEAKER_01: 4:04

That's true. Yeah, Jeremy had the tea. Well, I shouldn't have the tequila because last time I had the tequila, I was kind of that's when I like fell every everything fell off my desk. So it's probably back to the house.

SPEAKER_00: 4:18

Oh well. That's okay. And so to all of our listeners, we we do generally drink pretty much every time we're recording. Feel free to drink with us. Join us, sober living is fine as well, and we support it.

SPEAKER_01: 4:35

Yes, and just to add, on our TikTok page, we always do a drink menu for each book that we have. So make a drink from the menu. We also have a non-alcoholic um drink as well on there, too. So you guys can try. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 4:52

So this book was a ride, and that ride was set off by none none other than uh Dante who we wanted to kill every moment of the book. So I guess the first thing is did y'all have any sympathy for Dante at any point during this?

SPEAKER_01: 5:25

I don't want to say I don't want to say I had sympathy for him, I had empathy for him. Because you know, when I was reading this every step of the way, I was like, if I was Roman, I would kill him right now. Because he's too he's too much of a wild card, like I don't know what he's gonna do. Like, I'm sorry, yes, that's our brother, but like you gotta go. But I felt empathy for him specifically in the like earlier in the book when Roman says something where they killed a snake or something like that, and he said Dante got like he was always a very emotional kid, and he just felt a lot, so he cried over the snake and all this other stuff. So you can see he was such a sensitive soul, and I feel like usually it's the sensitive souls that are more tortured than anyone else. So, in that aspect, I felt empathy for him. He still pissed me off. He needs rehab. I would have put him in rehab. Honestly, that's what I would have done because he didn't do anything the whole book. Really was Roman making the money. So I would you go to rehab, get clean, no phones, no nothing, stay there until I'm done. Literally lock it up.

SPEAKER_03: 6:32

Yeah. I think for me, mine is kind of the opposite. I didn't feel real empathy for him till it was more sort of towards the end of the book, once I realized exactly what he was carrying, and I felt like he kind of started like the domino effect of like the bad things that essentially happened in their life. Like, if he wouldn't have told Roman what he saw, then they wouldn't have confronted the mom, and then what happened to the mom essentially wouldn't have happened in his mind, and then I was like, okay, now that I see what you're actually carrying, I kind of do see where some of that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:15

Yeah, I agree. And like I I did have a little bit more empathy for him throughout the book. Um, and that's probably just because of my experiences with addicts. Um I have them in my family, and so I know that usually an addiction like that, that's just so uncontrollable, you don't know what to do, does stem from some kind of trauma. So even before the the big reveal at the end, I I kind of figured it was something like that. And so I wasn't like I was annoyed with him mostly because of like the terrible freaking decisions he was making. But that comes with addiction, you know? Yeah. And it was just like, come on, like, bro. Like he I would have beat his ass if I was Roman. That's pretty much where I was at, and he would have deserved it, whether I feel bad for you or not. I gotta beat you up. Like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_03: 8:12

He definitely would have caught the hands because it was just like over and over and over and over again. Like at some point you have to realize that what you're doing is not okay.

SPEAKER_00: 8:21

Yeah. Like, where's your rock bottom? Sorry, like everybody should like I know everybody's rock bottom is gonna be different, I guess. But like, damn, how low you gotta go.

SPEAKER_01: 8:34

Obviously, because like honestly, with the first of all, that part what happened with the mom when she died. I screamed. Yeah, I was like I screamed because I was not expecting it at all. Yeah, and like you said, Ricky, like you now you understand, like what is it? He was doing all this stuff to drown everything out, but like, like you said, like where is rock bottom for you? Because he he's hit it a couple times from what they describe, but it's like how how can you go? How though can you because sorry? This is not a song, it is not the move of the song.

SPEAKER_00: 9:13

You get what I feel. I feel you. Oh, so how do we feel about Roman? Because Roman, he pretty much came in and took charge of the situation immediately. Yeah. So, like, do you see him as, I guess, in light of how the book ends up, do you see him as an anti-hero, a villain, a bro, like a hero? Like, what do you see him as?

SPEAKER_03: 9:48

Let me see, what what was my thought process for that? I feel like towards the beginning of the book, I saw him as like the hero. He really was like the big brother to me. Kind of coming in, swooping up everybody, doing all the stuff he's supposed to be doing. But then towards the end, like, who did he say? Dante ended up going away from here to glory, the daddy went to glory. I feel like Nevea, I feel like she kind of chose herself, but you choosing yourself with it's kind of like she's not whole. She has everything that essentially happened with their home, and then again, you guys, yeah, make sure you read the book. She did end up killing her dad, so she has to deal with that. So, like you're going away, but are you really leaving for peace? So, what did what did you really do?

SPEAKER_00: 10:45

Yeah. I think that's what made the I feel like that's what made this book so like like impactful, like couldn't stop thinking about it the whole time because it's like, oh my god, this he went through all of this and for what? Not only for what, but just to end up in a situation where you worse almost almost than anybody else. Like, all because you couldn't communicate with your sister, really, is what it was.

unknown: 11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:24

What's stuck in in trauma patterns?

SPEAKER_01: 11:28

What's that one? I had to look it up real quick. With that, now that I have this idea, it reminds me of that line from what's the one that has two faces in it in the dark knight. Is that dark knight right? Whichever one has a joker in it because I think the joke of Sheet Letters joke. Yeah, that one. Where he says, You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. And to me that's basically what happened because now now he's torn and tranquil. Because now you're in charge of this of this cruelty, basically. Oh boy, this boy's okay. He is I don't think I don't think he's a villain. I do think he's an anti-hero. I don't think he's a villain. I think he could become one. He could eventually, because there's no way you can live that type of life and still have some morality. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 12:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01: 12:20

Which is interesting because Torrent and Tranquel, which one Torrent was the not really, really crazy one. Tranquil was like the crazy, crazy one. Right. Torrent had his morality when it came to his pets to his dogs. That's the only time you ever seen him be sweet to anything.

SPEAKER_00: 12:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 12:35

So you have that. But like, and then of course, like towards the end of the book where not towards the end of the end of the book, where what's her face? Jealousy, girl, you're knocked up. You're knocked up and now talking about I don't want to lose this life. I don't now look at now you're stuck. Look, look at look. Well, let's let's talk about that. At least he's rich at that.

SPEAKER_00: 12:56

That part because I mean, yeah. Let's talk about that because I want to talk about jealousy. I want to talk about jealousy. I feel like she is the biggest victim in this damn book. Yeah. She had a deal with her brothers. She asked this man straight out several times, are you involved with what they're doing? He said, No. He fell in love with her, she fell in love with him, just for him to now be in the place where they were. Right. And she's, I mean, she's essentially, in her mind anyway, it seemed like, stuck at this point. Like you just walked and saw the man you love who said, I'm not involved in all that shit. I'm above boy.

SPEAKER_03: 13:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 13:48

Um carrying his baby. Yeah. Oh my god. Like that, I my my heart broke for her. Because what's she gonna do now? Really?

SPEAKER_03: 14:03

I definitely agree with that. She essentially, I feel like she got the a smarter version of her brothers. And it's like a catch 42 because as a woman, like my man, he's not gonna hurt me, but I know that he can hurt you. And it's like it's gonna continue to happen. And then let's just say Lil Boot Boot is a boy. It's gonna be the same cycle.

SPEAKER_01: 14:28

Oh, I didn't even think about that part.

SPEAKER_03: 14:30

It'll be the same cycle.

SPEAKER_01: 14:31

I didn't even think about that. And I can't even like honestly, like it's fair that you say that where it's like it's repeating the cycle, you're falling for the same people that you don't want to be with, but you know who I love? Khalil. He's killing people too, and I'm like, oh my god. Roman's doing the same thing, but I'm also like, oh no. No, let me go for the murderer.

SPEAKER_00: 14:56

Like he was a criminal mastermind. And like, let's be real, I feel like the fact that Roman knew him prior to this should have been the red flag for us. Honestly, yeah. Yeah. Now like, what do you mean you have this man who will come out the woodworks and shoot niggas dead for you?

SPEAKER_03: 15:19

Right. You you have a killer on speed dialer on speed dial number one.

SPEAKER_01: 15:25

Got shooters. And ask no questions, be like, okay, like and that's what I liked. I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_03: 15:34

And speaking of killing too, what was the girl's name that uh she left and she wasn't supposed to come back and came back anyway?

SPEAKER_01: 15:43

And then Cassie, Cassie pissed me off. Lord, bro. She deserved it. I'm sorry. Sorry, she deserved it.

SPEAKER_03: 15:49

No, but for real. Because why did you come back? Why did you come back? Like, all you had to do was wait two more weeks. Hell, two more days, and you would have been fine to be coming back scot-free. Like, now ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Like, what's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_01: 16:07

She made me so mad. Like, she stressed me out because one, we know that what's his face, Dante was going to go Cassie, and how she's annoying. But yeah, for me, she deserved to die. Now I know this isn't a schedule question a scheduled question that we have. Do you think what do you think of what Don the only reason why Dante is dead? My issue, this is not a question, this whole entire book, and what we have. Nobody's communicating. No, nobody is communicating at all. And this whole entire story. Nobody from the beginning, like from their mom, of course, like as a parent, like, hey, I'm cheating on your dad. Like, yeah, there's a difference there. But like, I think the non-communication started when the mom died, and that's where the secrets kind of like just had a domino effect. What do you think? How do you think Dante, knowing what we know about Dante, like, what do you think he would have how he would have reacted if Roman just told him what happened to Cassie? Because to me, the whole reason why Dante, I think it's Roman's fault, the whole reason why Dante is dead, because the only reason why he's dead is because he went to this other the other crew thinking that they're the ones that killed her. So do you think like Dante should have just told him what happened? Because he knew, he said every step of the way, like this is what's gonna happen if she comes back. So how do you think Dante would have reacted?

SPEAKER_03: 17:31

I felt like if he would have told her, told him that he actually killed her, he would have tried to either harm himself or he would have really tried to harm Roman. And either way, excuse me, he would be it would be the same result. He would no longer be here. But I feel like he started losing trust in Dante after a while. Because before, like you said, he was telling him, okay, we're doing this, we doing this, we doing this. This last little scheme, which I feel like was perfect. Because I ain't gonna lie, when the cop came out and was kind of like a gotcha, I was like, dang, it'll got my boy. I know.

SPEAKER_00: 18:07

No. Right.

SPEAKER_03: 18:09

So that was good. So I feel like he couldn't tell him that. Cause like you said, he's a wild car, he just be doing stuff. He would have came in there and messed everything up.

SPEAKER_00: 18:18

Right. And I think like, like, I wonder well, I'm not gonna say I think. I wonder I wonder if Roman thought about this beforehand. Because Roman knows his brother. Now, um, I wonder if Roman actually knew like what could have possibly happened. Because you gotta think Roman is Uber smart. He is so smart. Not only that, he thinks five steps ahead. Yeah what if he wanted Dante out the way? I don't think we can put it past him.

SPEAKER_03: 19:04

Now, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01: 19:06

I think we can put it past him because if his whole plan at the end was to be like the head of this whole thing, he can't have no loose ends.

SPEAKER_03: 19:19

Now, if I'm gonna be running a criminal enterprise, I wouldn't want Dante as my right hand man.

SPEAKER_00: 19:25

No. Knowing something about you when you sell drugs? Oh nah.

SPEAKER_03: 19:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:31

Oh my god. I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_03: 19:35

Interesting. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 19:37

It made me wonder because it's like we we already knew, like, it's not like, I mean, and speaking in context of the book, not you know, that I think sh anybody should die, but we knew she had to die, right? She had to, yeah, Cassie. She had to die because she didn't listen. She's riding around town in the man's same car. I don't know why she would do that, but she could have caught an Uber, bro. Literally, like, rent a car? Didn't she get so much money? Like, he gave her so much money, like you could have bought a car at this point. Like, it just makes no sense. Like, he got her papers and everything. I just I will never understand. But anyway, she had to die. But I yeah, yeah, no, yeah. That's it. That's all that's all, yeah. Yeah, I just like if literally, y'all, like, I'm I'm trusting at this point, if you've listened this far, that you have read the book because spoilers and stuff, but like if you haven't and you're just listening and didn't intend on actually reading it, please read it. Because I'm telling you, this book has me like in my feelings still, and I really like I finished it a week ago. Like, what do you what do you think about the level of guilt that everybody felt? Because obviously their mom's death was the beginning of all the trauma and the beginning of all of the you know trouble with them. So, who do you think of all of the siblings had the most guilt about it? Like, as far as feeling it, because I think about that.

SPEAKER_01: 21:18

I don't think Navea had guilt initially because she didn't know about she had a lot of I think she had anger because in her mind she had to step up as like now the the mother figure or whatever. So I don't think she had guilt until the end when she killed her daddy because that's why she left. Right. I d I think honestly, I think it was Dante. I think Roman felt Roman felt guilty and he he hid his guilt in his you know dominatrix sexual thing. Honestly, Sigmund Freud would have a field day with that man with what he was into. I'm telling you. The edible complex is real, so he did that, but I think I think it was Dante out of all of them, honestly.

SPEAKER_03: 22:01

Yeah, I agree with that too.

SPEAKER_01: 22:03

I agree.

SPEAKER_03: 22:04

I feel like his was because fixed itself like everybody else was kind of skating by, like with Roman, like he was doing really well. And then the vehicle, of course, she was struggling, but she was still she was treading water. I felt like he was drowning.

SPEAKER_00: 22:23

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And I hate that for him because I feel like it's all Roman's fault. It's all Roman's fault. Like, at what point, like, and I know I know he would tell Dante, you know, it's not your fault, it's not your fault. But like, it's almost like Paco's having a field day back there. You hate me.

unknown: 22:46

You keep that.

SPEAKER_00: 22:51

I don't he's literally walking past just like, hey. Because there's nothing over here for him. But anyways, like, um, yeah, like it's almost like Roman, it's almost like it was safe for Roman for Dante to be on drugs. You get what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02: 23:10

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 23:12

Because, first of all, who goes from the beginning, from the very beginning, I'm like side-eyeing everything because why are you going to the bar with your brother who you know is an addict? You gonna go drink with him? What? Yeah, it's not making sense. And he never, I mean, there's a points in the book where he literally hands him a bottle.

SPEAKER_03: 23:40

Yeah, from the cabinet and stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:45

I wonder if it's that mentality of like you're gonna drink, you might as well just do it with me. You know what I mean? Versus like you being out with somebody else.

SPEAKER_00: 23:53

I wonder if that was his mentality behind it. I definitely think that's a part of it because he was so scared of him saying something, and he kept saying that, and I it's almost like it was like, Yeah, numb your go continue to numb yourself out. But I think that started before all of this. I think that started with the mom. Yeah. You get what I'm saying? Because he don't want him to tell nobody, he can't.

SPEAKER_03: 24:19

Because everything would crumble.

SPEAKER_01: 24:20

Which I don't even know, I don't understand the daddy being like, don't say anything. Because I this is just because I watched true crime, okay. I'm not crazy. I feel like they could have they could have painted that a completely different way with the police. They did not have to cremate her body. They could be like, My sons came at this particular time, and then honestly, and this is this is how we found her. We found her here with her head cracked open, and then police are doing the investigation, they find out she's having an affair, and he that man was there. Dante already knew that man was there. All he had to do was stay home, be like, Oh, I saw my mom with this man, and now she's dead. Bam, that man's in jail. Do I want to in this man to go to jail? No, but I mean, are they still lying? Yes, but it's different.

SPEAKER_00: 25:10

They they could have gone like about it so many other ways than the way they did.

SPEAKER_03: 25:16

But I just had this thought, excuse me, and now I'm thinking I thought the dad was just like mean and selfish the whole time. But now I'm thinking, like, as a parent, would he have rather the whole town thought that he killed his wife and have his name sullied opposed to his son's.

SPEAKER_00: 25:38

That's a good point. I just thought about it. And you know what? I never thought about that. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't think about that either. Cause also what he's can, I mean, he's carrying the same thing they are. And it seems like all of them have a pattern of hiding from the trauma versus dealing with it. So he hid in his silence, in his aloofness towards them, etc. Because, well, damn, my children just killed the love of my life.

SPEAKER_01: 26:09

And then finding out during the investigation, my wife is cheating on me.

unknown: 26:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 26:14

Like, that's a lot. They all needed therapy. Everybody in that book needed therapy.

SPEAKER_00: 26:17

Every step goes sit down and talk to the everybody, please literally find her quick. Because poor Navea, like Navea needed therapy very much, okay. But it's like why why are you still like even the part where Roman was trying to get her to leave for a vacation, right? And she's like fighting, like, should I go? Girl, your dad is laid up in the hospital. You don't know what's going on with your brothers, get out of there. Like, of everybody, I'm like, I hate that she ended up out of this anger that she had and this sureness that her dad killed her mom. I hate that she ended his life. Yeah. But at the same time, I am so happy for her that she got out of town. I hate that it took that, but I'm so glad that she got away from all of that because Roman, it seems his his his MO is to let people drown so he can float. Damn, so is he a villain? Maybe banning in this light. Like the more we're talking about it, it he's feeling more and more villainy.

SPEAKER_01: 27:41

Yeah, because even there are moments in the when she's like when she's showing him the the the files that she has or whatever, and all he keeps saying is like he didn't do it, he didn't do it, and he's like, Okay, like you're you're so sure that you keep telling me that he didn't do it. How do you know? Right, let me know, but you're not telling her at all. So you're still letting her think that he did this, and like, yeah, I hate that she killed her dad, but like to me, that's Roman's fault too, because nobody is opening their mouths to say anything. It's everything's one big miscommunication.

SPEAKER_00: 28:13

Yeah, like we talk to each other, and I and I it's like I hate to even call it a miscommunication because it's he's just a straight up liar. He did nothing but lie the entire book and force his brother to lie with him. And his dad, like, damn, like at this point, this man finna die. You're not about to let this man die with dignity, at least to his daughter. I mean, you ain't gotta tell the world if you don't want to, but like, dang, at least tell your sister so she can have some peace. Lying to jealousy, poor jealousy, Lord have mercy. Justice for jealousy.

SPEAKER_01: 28:57

None of I really not like literally for jealousy. No, but she she was honestly outside of Khalil, she was like the only character I really actually liked.

unknown: 29:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:10

That was it. The dirty talk got me though, and she said, Did didn't she at one point have like to spit in his mouth or something like that? Oh yeah, they was nasty together.

SPEAKER_02: 29:20

They was nasty together.

SPEAKER_01: 29:24

I mean, even at the end of the book where it's like where they're talking about the relationship, what was it that almost made me like throw up in my mouth? Because I don't like already. If you're listening to this, I don't want to yuck your yum, but you know, I'm gonna do it. The scene where he goes in the bedroom in the dark, she's mama, and he's her dirty boy.

unknown: 29:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 29:51

That's what you like, girl.

SPEAKER_00: 29:53

Run, he killed his last mama.

SPEAKER_01: 30:03

Run. That's the type of role playing you like. Oh gosh. Good for you, but oh my god. God's wild ripping.

SPEAKER_00: 30:17

Like it's crazy. Like, but also let's think about this though, because you telling me he basically said he ain't never been in love before he met jealousy. And she he met her, and oh, I can tell her that I love to be whipped and shit. I can tell her. I can open up myself to her that I love to call somebody mommy when I'm I can I can do that. And now we're in love.

SPEAKER_01: 30:48

I had to look up what a cat of nine tails was because I didn't know what it was. And I kept repeating. I was like, what is it? And I was scared. I was scared to because listen, y'all, the last time, the last time I had to Google something that was like sexual, this is like pre pre-podcast days, and we were like first trying to try out. This is what I'm gonna reference a book again, Butcher and Blackbird. When they talked about her piercings and they kept talking about her piercings, I was like, what is this? Like, what's a four for set, whatever it is? And I was like, I don't want to Google this, but I I I want to know what she was talking about because I feel what was it? It's a lot of piercings down there, and that's a little bit. Yeah, yeah. I didn't look at the actual picture, I looked at like a drawing, like a drawing picture, like but like when I had a look, I was so scared to look up a cat of ninetales. I was like, oh no. But like, yeah, that was the last time I ever Googled, and I was like so scared. But hey, if that's again, hey, they're all dealing with their mommy trauma in some way. He has enough money to go to a therapist. That's what pisses me off.

SPEAKER_00: 32:05

He does he do not want to be healed. He loves his trauma, he he loves, he loves it, he revels in it. It's what makes him ruthless, I promise you. Because you tell like, and also let's also think about the fact that he was so pissed off that he put hands on his mama. That part it started. So you telling me that's the first time we done seen they've seen uh violent side of him? I don't know. Roman might have been crazy the the entire time and just hit it well, because you let's just be real about super rich people. Most of the time it is because they're crazy as hell.

SPEAKER_03: 32:47

Yes, he's got enough money to cover it up. That's true.

SPEAKER_01: 32:52

And he did it for his clients. They meant he meant to multiple times that he was doing it, he would do it for his clients. And make sure disappear. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00: 33:00

And people, right? Because he again, because he knew Khalif before all of this.

SPEAKER_03: 33:06

And I have a question too for y'all. Do y'all think that he had something to do with those drugs that Dante had? Because it was a part in the book where he first called Khalil or however you say his name, and he was like, We have a problem down here with something. And I was like, is that trying to allude that he was the one supplying the drugs? Do y'all remember that?

SPEAKER_01: 33:30

No, I think it was one of those things where it was like he had to speak in like code, maybe.

SPEAKER_03: 33:35

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 33:37

And I think like I think Khalil knew what the problem was because it's like, okay, so now I gotta I can't explain everything to you over the phone, so you need to come down here. Cause I feel like a conversation like that is not one you have over the phone. Cause I feel like how he alluded to his his not employees, his clients that he had. Some of them are probably into some weird stuff, so maybe his phone was bugged. And he couldn't talk about certain things. So he was like, Okay, I need you to come down here.

SPEAKER_03: 34:02

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 34:03

And help me with this.

SPEAKER_03: 34:07

But okay, that makes sense. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01: 34:11

Poor Grady.

SPEAKER_03: 34:12

Well, no, no, poor Grady, because didn't he rip off the rip him off? Yeah, he ripped him off. Oh, yeah, that's true, that's true. I forgot about that. He did snitch you.

SPEAKER_00: 34:21

He stole from Dante, Lord. Why we can't have a black, affluent family with no trauma.

SPEAKER_01: 34:27

But Roman didn't believe that he stole from Dante. He thinks he he kept saying, he's like, I think Dante might have helped him take some of the drugs too.

SPEAKER_03: 34:35

Yeah, he did.

SPEAKER_01: 34:36

So he never had faith in his brother ever. No, he didn't.

SPEAKER_03: 34:40

That's very true.

SPEAKER_00: 34:42

Yeah. And they were. But yeah, that that boy definitely showed it end up burnt up.

SPEAKER_03: 34:50

What'd she say?

SPEAKER_00: 34:51

He did not make it.

SPEAKER_03: 34:52

Everything burns. I said, okay. Everything burns. Literally.

SPEAKER_00: 34:58

Everything and everybody, apparently. Jesus. The fact that it was caskets missing like that. It's like, cause there's like just think about how, like, and like he Dante, what killed me through this book is how not Dante, how Roman justified what he was doing. He's like, oh, this is for my family. This is for my brother. I always protect my brother. I always do this. When in reality, your brother was protecting you. Yes. From the beginning. Okay. But he's doing all this justification, all this, and you know, and not to say, I mean, he already, I mean, we are he kind of pretty much already alluded to this already, but he was already a bad person.

SPEAKER_02: 35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:44

Okay, because he's making people disappear for clients, he's hiding money in Swiss bank accounts, he knows how to scam, do all the rich people's scams with the stock market and pump and dumps and all of this kind of stuff. But it's like, you really just want to do this. Because he kept talking about how much he likes making money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:03

And he was like, Oh, it's like it's like, well, you get your money and so do I. So what if it was like, what if he got like almost a high off of it? Because now he's able to do this stuff and get extra money that he's not able to do on the legit side back in Atlanta. You know what I mean? Like now he's able to like and go unscathed.

SPEAKER_02: 36:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:20

Crazy. Because the cop that was on his back is now dead. Chauncey doing the best. So Chauncey won't shit. Oh, he was terrible. Horrible. I hated him. I hated him.

SPEAKER_03: 36:34

And I hate that Nevada got with him.

SPEAKER_00: 36:38

Yeah. Cause it seemed like from the description, she was a pretty woman. Like, you don't have to settle for that. But you know, she she was self-loathing in a lot of ways. And it just it just really hurt my heart to see the way that trauma really messed all them kids up and the daddy. She was on she was a track star. She's got all these plans, and now she's stuck at home taking care of a daddy. She thinks she killed her mom. These vocals.

SPEAKER_03: 37:11

No, but for real though.

SPEAKER_01: 37:14

Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03: 37:16

Like places.

SPEAKER_01: 37:19

Yeah. That's another song, too.

SPEAKER_03: 37:23

Girl, not a singal line. I can't sing. I'm so sorry, y'all. That is not my ministry. Can't do it.

SPEAKER_01: 37:30

We got we almost 20 minutes left, so we gotta get to the other question.

SPEAKER_00: 37:34

No, we good. We're good. We actually like, you go mark where we're talking about this right now. So going back to the inciting incident with the mom, Roman and Dante, and her ending up dying. What do you think about the father's decision to not just move them away? Because it seems like that would have been like the easiest, or not the easiest, but like the cleanest way to remove them from the situation.

SPEAKER_01: 38:06

I got two things. One, I feel like he didn't want to do it because that might make him seem even more guilty.

SPEAKER_03: 38:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 38:15

Because the people of the town that gossip so it's oh yeah, of course he moved away because he did X, Y, and Z. But two, I I don't think he wanted to leave his business. He put too much into that business. And there are multiple times where it's like, oh, he cared about the business more, blah, blah, blah, and all this other stuff. So I don't think he wanted to leave it. Honestly.

SPEAKER_03: 38:38

I can definitely do that.

SPEAKER_00: 38:42

I hate that though. Cause it's like in that in that sense, maybe. Ooh, I'm making a connection. I'm making a connection. Hold on. So like, you know how we were talking about earlier how it's like, or I I felt anyway. I felt like Roman used Dante as almost like a buoy for himself, almost as like something to hide all of the pain in. Because Roman is the one who did it, but Dante is the one who has to hold everything in and is now using drugs to cope with that information. What if it's almost like the dad did that same thing to the kids? And it's just a repeating pattern. Because you telling me your business is this important to you, that you're gonna sacrifice your children, knowing people are gonna are actively saying things about you killing their mom. Now, if you just if you made the decision you want to take the the blame, okay, that's fine. But y'all are you are leaving them in that exact same situation to be treated badly, to be talked about. Not only that, but live in the same house.

SPEAKER_03: 39:59

And then had them working there. You had both of your sons working where they're they hurt their mom. Like what?

SPEAKER_01: 40:08

Oh my god, that's why it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: 40:13

Oh my gosh. It does. Like that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01: 40:18

And Naveza couldn't understand it, but no. No, and Roman never said anything to her. Like, whenever she would say something, he would be just like, Yeah. Cause he knows. Oh my god. That's that makes that makes sense. Oh god.

SPEAKER_03: 40:30

Because there was a quote there, and it was like Navea saying, Yeah, but how many people got a mama who went missing and a whole town who thinks their daddy burnt them up? So, like you said, just hearing that over and over again. And my thought was, and not just them, I feel like a lot of people would rather to suffer somewhere where they feel familiar rather than going somewhere new with the uncertainty to thrive. Like cause Alicia, you know, you're you know, I don't know, she's from New York or whatever, so she's not New York. New York or whatever. But like smaller towns.

SPEAKER_01: 41:11

That's a good accent.

SPEAKER_03: 41:17

But like smaller towns are like that. Like they rather just stay exactly where they were at, or let's just say you were the football star or the basketball star. You rather stay in that one place where like your glory years are and just do whatever you did, or your daddy did, and your granddaddy did, opposed to going off somewhere to really like spread your wings. And I felt like he was just kind of stuck, and then his kids were stuck too. Because they could have had a different I feel like they could have had a different life if they would have packed up and went somewhere else. Cause like you said, people were talking about you, but if I ain't here, I can't hear it.

SPEAKER_01: 41:54

I think that's what Roman did, because Roman did go away. But then he was still he was still messed up. But it's like, but given like if you like you said, if he would have if he would have stayed in Jefferson Run, he wouldn't have been able to do what he's doing or get where he's going. And I wonder if his siblings feel animosity towards him because of that. Because he was really the only one to get out.

SPEAKER_00: 42:23

They should have, but I think they gave him a lot of grace. And was he the oldest? He didn't disappear.

SPEAKER_01: 42:31

Or was Navea the oldest?

SPEAKER_00: 42:33

Navea, right? Okay. Am I tripping? No.

SPEAKER_03: 42:37

I feel like he was the oldest.

SPEAKER_01: 42:42

Yeah, I know Dante's the youngest for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 42:44

Because she was like off doing track, and then he was trying to get with some girl when all this was happening.

SPEAKER_00: 42:50

Yeah. So, like, it's it's that same thing. I think I think they gave him a lot of grace to go away. It's almost like they they were proud of him for doing that. But they really he sacrificed them to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03: 43:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:10

He sacrificed his sister and her happiness. He he admitted it several times, you know, that he no, he he wasn't a good brother. No, he no, he didn't check in as much as she should have. No, he didn't help her as much as he should have. And it's like, oh my gosh, he's so incredibly selfish. Oh my god. Jealousy. Like, I'm just I just keep going back to the fact, like, girl, you are stuck with a psychopath. Because what kind of crazy, like, really, that you can lie that easy and for that long. And he he kept lying to himself at the beginning. Maybe he did have intention on eventually telling her the truth. But like he never did.

SPEAKER_01: 43:57

And I think when you bring up he's a psychopath, I think he's even more dangerous than Torrent and Tranquil. Because they use violence as a way to scare people. Somebody who is quiet, who's a manipulator, who's a thinker, heavy calculate stuff. Yes, that's that's worse to me than some because again, like you keep you don't see it coming like the at the end of the book. Like where you thought the cop was gonna No, he had everything planned. Like you don't see it coming. We didn't see it coming, because it's just like we even though we know the whole entire time he's smart, we still don't he was so many steps ahead. And I wonder if that's why she felt the way that she felt, because again, she didn't see it coming. She knows who her brothers are, she knows who her daddy is. She didn't see him coming at all with what he was doing.

SPEAKER_03: 44:51

It's like a constant reminder, too, because what are you gonna be doing with your job?

SPEAKER_00: 44:55

Run away. What do you think? Justice for jealousy. I I'm really I'm really excited with the video. J4 literally it would be like Nikki, how she put the hashtags and all of the rant she was going on last week.

SPEAKER_03: 45:17

She was wilding.

SPEAKER_00: 45:18

Let's not get the barbs on us. Oh no, no, no.

unknown: 45:23

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 45:24

We like Nikki, okay? I'm just making a jokey joke.

SPEAKER_03: 45:27

A little bit, ha ha. Lighthearted. We won't know the subject.

SPEAKER_00: 45:37

We don't want no smoke. But I'm so excited to see this on film, on screen. Like, you this is the one that's gonna be a show, right?

SPEAKER_01: 45:48

I I think so. One of his stuff is gonna one of his stuff he said got um signed off for Netflix. I don't know which I he said it in like a a panel, QA panel, and I don't remember which one it was.

SPEAKER_00: 45:58

Okay, no, it's all sinner's bleed. Okay, so we have to read that. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 46:03

Yes, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00: 46:04

But I want this to be next. I need Netflix. Hello. Hello, Netflix. The people are requesting. I need to see this as a movie, a show, or something, because this was like perfect. I don't know if y'all watched um Ghost. What's the show? You know Power, yes. Ugh, power had me on the edge of my seat like this. Like, this is this was so like mmm. The the ending, like, can I just tell me that I haven't watched it yet? No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about the ending of the book. But if you have wait, you haven't watched Power, girl, watch power.

SPEAKER_01: 46:42

But everybody might film and watch. Oh, fun fact, really quickly, being from New York and all whatever. Um, they film episodes of power outside of my apartment I grew up in. They were filming when I was black in May. Yes, there was one time my daddy said like they were filming and he he's always singing and humming. He's a singer, so he's always doing stuff. They told him to stop and be quiet because they were trying.

SPEAKER_03: 47:03

I live here, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 47:08

Put him on the show and they have it, Layla. Literally, he could have been the singing man number three. I know what it's like. That's rude. Um, but no, like the ending of the book, I mean, not power.

SPEAKER_01: 47:26

Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 47:27

It was I don't I have never I have never read a book where the ending is so satisfying in the way that it's closed, but so subversive to what you're expecting the satisfaction to come from. Yes. Like I was fully expecting him to get away with everything, right? Because I did trust that Roman was smart enough to do that. But I didn't expect it to end like that, but still it was so satisfying despite it being such a terrible, terrible situation. Like so good. That's what I gotta say about that book. Like, yeah, like that hit.

SPEAKER_01: 48:06

And that's how we I want it to be a show because you know when they make into a movie, they have ways of like cutting stuff out. Of a movie, I don't want that. I need a show. Yeah, we need all the details 15, 16 episodes in detail, everything.

SPEAKER_03: 48:20

And you were talking about power. I think they said his other one, I think it's black top wasteland. I'm sorry if I'm messing that up, but they say that one is really like power.

SPEAKER_00: 48:31

Ooh. I'm gonna try that. S.A. Crosby. Cosby girl. Cosby. Sorry, sir. I'm country. SA Cosby. Oh, he's got a book with Quest Love. Really? Yeah, like Quest Love, Quest Love. Oh, that's cute. I I just we yeah, this this book was great. Like, I want to read all of his stuff now. Yes. Like, this is probably my favorite book of the year.

SPEAKER_03: 48:57

It is, it's up there. Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00: 49:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 49:02

What did y'all very much? Oh, the what's the name? The names.

SPEAKER_00: 49:09

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 49:11

I have my I have my dissertation.

unknown: 49:13

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01: 49:14

Share.

SPEAKER_03: 49:15

Oh, I think I want to hear, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 49:17

Okay, okay, okay. So before for those who are listening, it's Alicia here. So I have my master's is in literary theory and analysis. So this is like my favorite thing to talk about. So I'm gonna go on like a really nerdy tangent right now. So like with each of their names, like their names in accordance to like how they act, which is like what they mean. Of course, we have Nivea, which is heaven, which like took me a minute to get. I was like, oh, it's like oh god, duh. We have Dante and Dante's name means enduring and steadfast, which we know.

SPEAKER_00: 49:50

But okay, can I just interject? In one way, he was enduring, okay. He never told on his brother. Poor Dante. Okay, but Dante too. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 50:00

He did he never told on his brother.

SPEAKER_00: 50:02

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 50:03

And then, like with Roman, we think about the Roman Empire, a leader. And then the Roman Empire did fall, so eventually, whatever. Um, but as I was reading it and thinking about the name meetings, I started to build parallels between King of Ashes and the Divine Comedy by Dante Alighieri, which is also known as like Dante's Inferno, like this the nine seven nine rings of hell, or whatever. So in the Divine Comedy, I'm gonna have it so written down, we have Dante, who is 35 years old, pretty much around the same age as all three of these siblings. And he's like midway through the journey of his life, and he's in the dark, these dark woods, and he's going astray, and that's an allegory for like astray from the right way of living and away from salvation of where he needs to go. Because I think this also takes place on like Good Friday, okay, up until Easter. And he goes to climb this mountain, and he's blocked by three animals. He's blocked by a leopard, a lion, and a she-wolf, and each is almost like an allegory for a different sin. So we have the leopard who represents fraud and malice, we have the lion who represents violence and bestiality, and then we have the she-wolf who represents incontinence, and I think every single sibling has that, and incontinence is like literally a lack of self-control. You're you're doing things because you just you're you're lacking self-control without thinking about the consequences of everything, and then bestiality in this sense um is seen as a degradation of humanity, and it's a sin so heinous they degrade humans to a level below animals. And I was looking this up, and Rodney Payton, who wrote A Modern Reader's Guide to Dante's Inferno, said that humans, because they are the only mortal beings with reason, we are the only ones capable of misusing it. And we see that throughout the whole entire thing. So we have that balance, we have the fraud, because you said Roman lies all the time. Nave is lying to herself with she's in a lustful relationship, like fraud there. There's fraud throughout the whole entire thing, going back to when the mom is dead. So you see that follow them the whole entire time, and then um the with malice, it's the intention and the desire to do evil. So we see that with like Torrent and Tranquil, and I think we start to see that with Roman, because he's getting a taste for it throughout it. And yeah, that's like my little my little dissertation that I found that I thought of. Because it's like, and there's fire and everything like that. And am I saying that SA Cosby wrote it with this? I don't know, but that's the first thing I thought of with all of this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 53:04

Cause like Yeah, I really like that the correlation and the points that you made because when I think same same thing with Dante's Inferno, I just thought it was like opposite, because like you said, steadfast, supposed to be brave, total opposite. Nevea heaven spelt backwards, and quite literally she's full of pain, and then you got Roman, who essentially the ruler of all, and then that's essentially what he is now. He now he runs the game. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 53:38

Wow. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_03: 53:40

I feel like he put some thought, like I feel like he did put some real thought in between.

SPEAKER_00: 53:45

He maybe put that this man is a writer, okay. King game crazy capital W. King Game.

SPEAKER_01: 53:52

I don't want to know. SA Call, if you listen to this, did you get inspiration from the Divine Comedy?

SPEAKER_00: 53:56

Because we would like to know. If you want to be interviewed by us, if you would like to come on the show, we welcome you. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 54:04

Oh, and with with the degrad the bestiality and decorate degradation stuff like that, I see that a correlation between them and Torrent and Tranquil.

unknown: 54:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 54:12

Because again, that's like something so heinous. Like you do stuff so bad that it's like you're less than human now. Because there's a part at the when all of their crew members like turn on them. And I don't remember if it was the one that sh that called them out for shooting that kid or was the one who got his hand smashed, but someone was like, You did this, like who does that? Like what like almost what human being does that to another human being? And they call them out for their animalistic ways. Because especially Tranquil, he's hot head, he won't write. Something that right up there, right? Because he was everybody, everybody was getting it left and right. Yeah. So I feel like that's like a big thing with them too, because they were just yeah, crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 54:54

And and to the names point again, I feel like it's like what you said, Rikia, like how they ended up opposite of what their names are. It also is kind of like like it's it it shows you like what their names are anyway, what it could have been, you know, if they didn't have it. Because Roman being as smart as he is, he would have been successful either way. He would have been just fine. Dante, obviously a sensitive soul, obviously loves his family. Um gosh, who knows what kind of life he could have had if he didn't have so much pain that he felt the need to turn to drugs. And same for Nevee. Beautiful girl had track in her, you know, she could have gone to college. She wanted to go to college, she didn't. She could have led a beautiful life. Now, jealousy, that's a hell of a name.

SPEAKER_01: 55:57

That's a that's a name. Ironic because she has nothing that anybody would be jealous of, honestly. Not right now. No, I'm scared for him.

SPEAKER_03: 56:07

There are some people who do envy that type of lifestyle. Some people probably look at it as a big thing. Oh, it's true.

SPEAKER_00: 56:12

You're right, you're right.

SPEAKER_03: 56:13

Good-looking man, he got money, he got power. This is what I want. No. Like coldest winter ever. Y'all remember that book? Bro.

SPEAKER_00: 56:22

Oh, winter was a mess, bro.

SPEAKER_03: 56:24

Midnight. And what was the dude's name who got her locked up? Bullet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 56:29

Mmm. Alicia, have you read it?

SPEAKER_01: 56:32

No, somebody actually did recommend it though yesterday in the video that we put for like the previous book you ever read.

SPEAKER_00: 56:38

Tia, I have a lot of books, okay? Nuh-uh. Read that one next because that's a classic. Not only is it a classic, it's a quick read. Okay, okay. But when I tell you, oh my goodness. The end that, yeah, that's definitely that's that's a good one. I'm glad that somebody suggested that because that is absolutely one of those books where the end then just had me like, ugh, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_01: 56:58

I need well, I'm reading right now the one that you recommended, Keep It in the Family.

SPEAKER_00: 57:02

Oh, yeah. That book was.

SPEAKER_01: 57:03

Which I'm 31 pages and I'm already stressed out because I know some shit's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00: 57:09

Um, it's Keep It in the Family. It's by uh Jimmy. John Mars? John Mars. Okay. John Mars, like, y'all, we we discuss a lot of different books on our social media, but like on the podcast, we focus more on black and POC authors. But John Mars is one white man. I really like his writing.

SPEAKER_01: 57:30

Listen, one thing a white man's gonna write is a thriller, okay?

SPEAKER_00: 57:33

Yeah. He did that. He did that. And I read um, what's the other book I read of his? The one. And I am now reading the what the the marriage act.

SPEAKER_01: 57:46

He did that one too?

SPEAKER_00: 57:48

Yeah. It's a whole it's a series, actually. The one, then the marriage act, and then the next one, I think, is I can't remember the third one, so I'm not gonna waste time on that. But yeah, it's a series, it's really good. Like amazing.

SPEAKER_03: 58:03

I need to start keeping in the family. And that's the thing too, because even with S.A. Cosby, I feel like men as a whole do really well with like mystery thrillers.

SPEAKER_01: 58:14

They do. Yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_03: 58:16

This was really good. I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01: 58:18

I wonder why. I wonder why. I just honestly, just for like shits and giggles, I want to read a romance by a man just to see.

SPEAKER_00: 58:24

We should find one. There is one. There's one, okay? I there's one romance author I see, and he he be around at some of the um the events, like the romance festivals and stuff like that. I have to find him because we should put him on the list. Because I'm interested as well. I've never read a fire by a man.

SPEAKER_03: 58:47

Like Eric Jerome Dickey, I feel like I was reading him when I didn't have no business. Is his considered romance? His is like urban urban romance. Yeah. So yeah. I think so. Okay. Hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 58:59

Now that you say that.

SPEAKER_03: 59:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 59:02

Yeah, because when I think about male authors, like I don't think about romantic stuff. Like, even like the scene that they had in this book where it was like their little the little tiny sex scene that they had. I had never read like a sex written by a man, so I was like, oh god. Hold on, what's this gonna be about? But it was just like a little baby one, so I was like, alright, fine. Oh god. But thank you guys so much for listening. Our next read after this is I have the book with me, Family Lore by Elizabeth Acevedo. I think I think this might be her first adult novel, actually, because I think she mainly does young adult stuff. I think. I could be completely wrong, but this will be my first one from her. Family lore. I've seen Poet X. Like I've seen like the pictures like on like the bookstores and stuff, but I never actually picked it up.

SPEAKER_00: 59:59

But Yeah. Yeah, thanks for um listening in and we'll see you guys next time. Peace. Bye.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:10

Yes, and all social media at plot on the rocks.